Texas to take up bill requiring Ten Commandments in every public school

[DadSmith]

The only thing I'm "worried" about as it pertains to this discussion is that people like to use religion, whether atheist or deist, to remove restrict the right to free conscience.


That's your belief and you have every right to it. But I'd rather you not try to impose it on anyway through your community standards.


Well it's turned into that. But at first you were asserting your desire to make public schools put 10 commandment posters on the wall. My only objection to that has been that if you get to post yours, then everyone else gets to post theirs. And of course we had that discussion about how the US was founded to be a Christian nation.



Me? I've explained my position on it. I don't want secular humanists to impose their beliefs as the de facto religion any more than I want any other religion to impose theirs. Our only difference on this would be that you might want yours to the exclusion of everyone else's.

A lot of people think if a Christian reads the Bible out loud, or prays on a street corner that's imposing Christianity on them. What is your interpretation of imposing?

 

[Ingomike]

Yet for over 150 years the bible was taught in America schools. So obviously removing it from schools wasn't included until the secular humanist took over.

I suspect the change was the 14th amendment and the religious makeup of the country.

 

[jamil]

A lot of people think if a Christian reads the Bible out loud, or prays on a street corner that's imposing Christianity on them. What is your interpretation of imposing?

What you do in public is your business as long as you’re not hurting anyone. Don’t harass people and you’re just another person expressing himself.

 

[jamil]

I suspect the change was the 14th amendment and the religious makeup of the country.

Challenges to religious stuff in schools didn’t really happen until almost 100 years after the 14th amendment was ratified.

 

[DadSmith]

What you do in public is your business as long as you’re not hurting anyone. Don’t harass people and you’re just another person expressing himself.

What is your interpretation of harassment. Is handing out tracts to the public in your mind harassment?

 

[DadSmith]

I suspect the change was the 14th amendment and the religious makeup of the country.

I find it hypocritical that secular humanists, atheists, evolutionist can push and impose their beliefs on everyone, yet when you try to bring in a different belief they go ballistic and say it isn't allowed.
How is that considered American?

 

[Ingomike]

Challenges to religious stuff in schools didn’t really happen until almost 100 years after the 14th amendment was ratified.

But without the 14th and the religious makeup changes it might still have not happened…

 

[jamil]

What is your interpretation of harassment. Is handing out tracts to the public in your mind harassment?

No. Lets say you hand a pamphlet out, and I say no thanks.

You offered me something that you value in a public place, which is your right to do. And I declined. If that’s the end of it no harassment took place. If you respond by getting into my face and start telling me I’m going to hell, that’s getting to something closer to harassment.

What if someone handed you a pamphlet advocating secular humanism? Would you think that’s harassment?

 

[jamil]

It is what I've been saying. It's up to the community. If the community has multiple religious beliefs than it has a right to post those.

Right now it's secular humanist aka atheists who have it their way and no one else has a say.

But you just entered "secular humanism" into the discussion only within the last few posts. But, if you say it's up to the community, and you agree that a muslim in the community has as much right to post his religious beliefs as a Christian, then what have we been arguing about? I agreed with that many posts ago.

BTW, I am not an atheist. I'm an agnostic. I don't disbelieve in God. I just tend to doubt it. As I said before, it's untestable. I guess you could say I'm closer to a secular humanist because I do think that we can have moral and ethical principles without God. I think the concept of morals and principles evolved with humans. But, I also don't discount the role of spiritual influences on our lives. Spirituality evolved for a reason that is not purely explainable through evolution. Spirituality is pretty universal across culture and time.

 

[XMil]

FIFY

That's funny, a lot of "conservatives" are really happy lately to tell teachers what they can and can't tell students, what books their allowed to have etc. etc.

 

[JettaKnight]

A lot of people think if a Christian reads the Bible out loud, or prays on a street corner that's imposing Christianity on them. What is your interpretation of imposing?

I just think it's annoying.

 

[jamil]

I find it hypocritical that secular humanists, atheists, evolutionist can push and impose their beliefs on everyone, yet when you try to bring in a different belief they go ballistic and say it isn't allowed.
How is that considered American?

Again, I think you're attaching secular humanism with evolution. Evolution is a scientific theory that explains how life came about. It's scientific because it was derived through a scientific process of observation, experimentation, and testing. That last part is important. It's not a science if it's not testable.

Creation theory isn't scientific. For that theory to work, a belief in a higher power creating everything must precede anything else. It's not based on observation, experimentation, and testing. That god created everything is not testable. And it presupposes a belief in God.

But, so what? A scientific answer is not always the right answer. What if there is a God? Science is incapable of discovering God. Science is just a process to help discover truths about things. It can't discover things that aren't testable.

All that to say, society should not attempt to eliminate religious belief. But also, a free society does not establish a de facto religion. Society should not compel religion and it should not forbid religion. So far as the state goes, it should be agnostic on religion.

But in a science class, all science is on the table. So evolution should be taught in science classes. Creation "science" is a faith. It should not be taught in science classes. Secular humanism is inherently a religious point of view, and should not be taught as fact. But it's good to discuss all religious views in philosophy classes.

 

[jamil]

I just think it's annoying

Meh. It's whatever. Depends where it is. If I'm walking on a sidewalk on a busy street downtown, I expect to encounter all kinds of people pushing all kinds of things. If it's in my driveway, yer gonna get my point of view shoved up your ass as hard as you tried to shove yours up mine.

 

[Shadow01]

As a Catholic, I think it is probably crossing the line as for a seperation of church and state. Even though the ten commandments is really just basic guide on how to be a decent human being.

So how do schools keep from crossing that line when the take money from students that say “in god we trust” to pay for school lunches? I guess being selective based on how it benefits the school is justified.

 

[Shadow01]

That's funny, a lot of "conservatives" are really happy lately to tell teachers what they can and can't tell students, what books their allowed to have etc. etc.

They are employed by the taxpayer to do as they are told in regard to what is acceptable to teach. Teachers are free to be employed somewhere else that is more accommodating to their belief system. These schools belong to the parents. They have every right to set the agenda.

 

[JettaKnight]

I was always in the, "but secular humanism is there!" camp from my teens after studying David Noble's Understanding the Times course.

But now I'm wondering if that is just a canard we evangelicals use as a means to justify our belief that Christianity must be in schools to balance out the new religion that displaced us.


Interesting that evolution was brought up - it's my understanding that it was primarily deemed incompatible with Christianity in the twentieth century (and the trend is that it will only be so). As a Christian, my own view is I don't care how creation was made, but I do know why it was made. Science deals in the former, religion deals in the latter; they need not be in opposition.


OFF TOPIC EDIT: I've listened to a lot of the expert scientist from the Creation Institute (my church officially holds a strict 7 day view). It was amazing the drivel they spewed. I've never seen so many straw man set up in sanctuary. The utter shameless abuse of science... If I had any doubts going into it, they essentially sealed it for me. They did exactly the opposite of their intent.

 

[JettaKnight]

Meh. It's whatever. Depends where it is. If I'm walking on a sidewalk on a busy street downtown, I expect to encounter all kinds of people pushing all kinds of things. If it's in my driveway, yer gonna get my point of view shoved up your ass as hard as you tried to shove yours up mine.

We have "kinder and gentler" sidewalks here in Fort Wayne.

 

[jamil]

Religion of all kinds should be kept out of the school's teaching, displays etc.

The more I think about this. It depends. If we're talking about directly, I agree. But people's values will be influenced by their religion and if we're only talking about communities teaching what their constituents think is important, their religion will influence that.

That's funny, a lot of "conservatives" are really happy lately to tell teachers what they can and can't tell students, what books their allowed to have etc. etc.

Should teachers invite drag queens to thrust their crotches in student's faces? There are videos of that happening and that's what is fueling the laws being put in place now. Parents are furious that school officials are defending that kind of thing. At first the school officials denied it was happening. Then videos of it happening caused those same officials to start defending it. So what are legislators to think?

I generally agree with the statement that the community should have a say in what is taught. I also think there has to be limits on that. So no 10 commandments unless all religions are allowed equal access. But also, limit the ideological left from indoctrinating children into their cult of sexual confusion.

Can we agree on that? I say this enough. That question is indeed a sanity check.

 

[jamil]

I was always in the, "but secular humanism is there!" camp from my teens after studying David Noble's Understanding the Times course.

But now I'm wondering if that is just a canard we evangelicals use as a means to justify our belief that Christianity must be in schools to balance out the new religion that displaced us.

I think regardless of whether it's a canard or not, it is a tool to gain political power. I think I mentioned elsewhere the golden age of evangelical dominance was the the 90s. That dominance kinda died with the TEA Party. Evangelicals try to recoup that political power with Trumpism. The problem with that, they're only a faction of Trumpers, not the primary constituent. Something like 25, maybe up to 30% of Trumpers are evangelicals. So it's a big faction. It might be the plurality faction. But clearly nowhere near a majority.

Interesting that evolution was brought up - it's my understanding that it was primarily deemed incompatible with Christianity in the twentieth century (and the trend is that it will only be so). As a Christian, my own view is I don't care how creation was made, but I do know why it was made. Science deals in the former, religion deals in the latter; they need not be in opposition.

Evolution is only incompatible with Christianity as far as Creationism is a required component. But, I mean. Without the creation story, what is it even?

 

[jamil]

We have "kinder and gentler" sidewalks here in Fort Wayne.

Who goes downtown in Ft Wayne?

I lived there for 14 years. That was many years ago so maybe y'all have figured out how to make your downtown work. It was dead AF compared to other cities when I lived there. The only reasons I ever had to go downtown was if I had business at the city/county building. And jury duty. I did that a couple times.