Officers just disarmed me in Subway, lectured and took my DL.

[TheReaper]

IC 35-47-2-1 and -2-2 give a myriad of exceptions to the requirement to be licensed. Couple of the big ones, being one of your brothers in blue, being on property you have an ownership interest in, being on the property of someone who has given you verbal permission to carry. But you're right. I don't expect police to know every nuance of the laws they try to enforce. I just expect them to take their medicine when they enforce non-law as law.

All of that is true, but I think that we are specifically talking about public carry.

 

[the1kidd03]

It is likely that this encounter, furthered some of those people's belief that carrying a gun by a citizen is illegal. That's sad, and why I would consider the end overall result a FAIL to no true fault by the OP. He could have done some things to make his experience better, but that wouldn't have changed the situation and end result enough to make a positive public difference.

A less negative effect would have been made had the officers done the PROFESSIONAL thing and asked the OP to step outside, rather than how they chose to handle it.

 

[Indy60]

I wasn't there after I walked out, obviously... but I'd say the spectacle the officers put on was over-the-top. I'd imagine the customers (like the one kidd mentioned) thought the cops had "caught" someone doing something bad.

Without the cops standing up and explaining to all of them, the customers probably assumed that since I was "carrying like a cop", I was in the wrong.

I'd say it didn't help one bit. Partially my fault for being unprepared, and partially the officer's fault for the power-trip actions and embarassing disarming/detainment.

This could have ended differently if you had been pulled over in your car or the police said they observed you behind the wheel of your car. Driving on a suspended license could have resulted in your car being impounded and maybe even you being arrested. That action would have separated you from your gun and caused allot of financial hardship for you .Lesson learned? The devil is in the details. I bet you don't have this happen to you again.

 

[TheReaper]

Unless you're defining "without" as "not having obtained one from the state" then you would be correct. You are not legally obligated to have it ON you though.

Merely carrying a gun is not sufficient probable cause to suspect. Yes it is illegal to carry without having been issued a LTCH however, choosing to OC does not inherently make you a criminal or guilty of not having a LTCH. If anything, it would be reason to suspect the person is well informed of the laws and does have a LTCH. Show me a video/example of ONE person who chose to OC and was illegal in doing so within our statutes which would warrant reason to suspect the OPPOSITE of the "norm."

Without meaning no LTCH at all and yes, an officer can check you for a LTCH anytime he sees you carrying in public places.

 

[CathyInBlue]

Without meaning no LTCH at all and yes, an officer can check you for a LTCH anytime he sees you carrying in public places.

And he gets to decide what places he considers public for the purposes of this statute. Your bedroom, for instance.

 

[the1kidd03]

Without meaning no LTCH at all and yes, an officer can check you for a LTCH anytime he sees you carrying in public places.

Who said they couldn't?

You are not however, legally obligated to provide it since they can simply make a call to confirm you do in fact have one issued to you....

 

[iChokePeople]

It is likely that this encounter, furthered some of those people's belief that carrying a gun by a citizen is illegal. That's sad, and why I would consider the end overall result a FAIL to no true fault by the OP. He could have done some things to make his experience better, but that wouldn't have changed the situation and end result enough to make a positive public difference.

A less negative effect would have been made had the officers done the PROFESSIONAL thing and asked the OP to step outside, rather than how they chose to handle it.

100% speculation here, but what would have happened if the OP could have responded to the LTCH question with, "Yes, would you like to see it?" We'll never know. What if he had his little pink card and a solid grasp on the laws involved and was smooth and articulate and had a magnificent beard (ok, so maybe the beard part is a personal bias thing...)? What if it had been ATM but with a beard grizzly adams would envy? Again, we'll never know, but I would THINK the outcome could have been significantly different.

 

[drillsgt]

In that sense, it was a major FAIL, IMO.

A lady walked up to the officers and said "I'm glad you guys were here, thank you" immediately after the OP walked outside.

Everyone seemed to be very aware of what was going on because it was in the middle of the place and hard to miss. The atmosphere and people's faces seemed to indicate that merely because the officers were questioning him, they assumed him to be a criminal.

I approached one of the officers with the intent to educate and began the conversation with asking about the situation, but it was very apparent that they weren't interested in communicating with the likes of a "lowly little citizen." So after he gave me his reasons for the encounter I let it drop and continued onto my vehicle.

Having experienced that nature of LEO before, I felt it best to let them think they were right rather than to further irritate their ignorance.

I think that might have set me off if I heard her spout that nonsense.

 

[sgtonory]

Without meaning no LTCH at all and yes, an officer can check you for a LTCH anytime he sees you carrying in public places.

And how is the not a infringement of your rights?

 

[the1kidd03]

100% speculation here, but what would have happened if the OP could have responded to the LTCH question with, "Yes, would you like to see it?" We'll never know. What if he had his little pink card and a solid grasp on the laws involved and was smooth and articulate and had a magnificent beard (ok, so maybe the beard part is a personal bias thing...)? What if it had been ATM but with a beard grizzly adams would envy? Again, we'll never know, but I would THINK the outcome could have been significantly different.

The outcome could have been different, but that would have required a willingness to realize that they don't know EVERYTHING (on the LEOs' part.) That simply wasn't there, or I would have indeed continued the conversation. It wouldn't have been my first "rodeo."

 

[CTS]

And he gets to decide what places he considers public for the purposes of this statute. Your bedroom, for instance.

No, not your bedroom, it's not illegal to carry a handgun there unless you're a felon.

 

[iChokePeople]

The outcome could have been different, but that would have required a willingness to realize that they don't know EVERYTHING (on the LEOs' part.) That simply wasn't there, or I would have indeed continued the conversation. It wouldn't have been my first "rodeo."

As I understand the chain of events, you were too late. It could have all been different BEFORE you came in (as I understand where you came in, that is -- I could have misunderstood.)

 

[the1kidd03]

I think that might have set me off if I heard her spout that nonsense.

Indeed. I was dumbfounded at some of the statements.

First thing I heard was asking about his training (as if that's any of their business or at relevant to their motives for detainment).

Next thing I remember hearing was; "if a criminal DID come in here and you were standing in line like THAT, who do you think they're gonna go after first." At that point, I really held my laughter in. It's like something they are forced to recite at the academy, LOL. I REALLY wanted to jump in there, but didn't want my actions to be construed as "interfering with an investigation" which I KNOW has been done in Marion County before.

So, I waited for a better opportunity to try and educate them even if it wouldn't reach the public crowd. They simply were too self-absorbed in their righteousness to listen to someone without a badge so I dropped it.

Having been in similar and worse situations as the OP, I felt a little reassurance that he's not the only one was in order and offered him a ride if it wasn't too far out of the way. Figured he could get a ride back to his car later, when not being "hunted" and wouldn't be late getting back to work.

 

[popsmoke]

He said "If someone came in here to rob the place, who do you think they're going to target? And you aren't even trained. Are you proud of that?"

Pissed me off a bit, so I said "I've heard all the lectures on both sides, it's my choice how to carry."

I would have asked them the same question.

If someone came in to rob the place, and saw two cops sitting at a booth, who did they think were going to be targeted first?

I hate it when cops act outside of necessity. I appreciate everything they do, but it's not their job to lecture me on their carrying philosophy. I'd be willing to bet my next paycheck that I spend more time at the range annually than they do.

 

[the1kidd03]

I would have asked them the same question.

If someone came in to rob the place, and saw two cops sitting at a booth, who did they think were going to be targeted first?

I hate it when cops act outside of necessity. I appreciate everything they do, but it's not their job to lecture me on their carrying philosophy. I'd be willing to bet my next paycheck that I spend more time at the range annually than they do.

IME on public ranges, I'd say the MAJORITY of people on this site spend more money on practice and training than a majority of LEOs based on their abilities ON the range.

 

[drillsgt]

I would have asked them the same question.

If someone came in to rob the place, and saw two cops sitting at a booth, who did they think were going to be targeted first?

I hate it when cops act outside of necessity. I appreciate everything they do, but it's not their job to lecture me on their carrying philosophy. I'd be willing to bet my next paycheck that I spend more time at the range annually than they do.

It's likely a bet you would win, if they were gun guys like some of our LE's here you probably wouldn't have heard this nonsense.

 

[the1kidd03]

As I understand the chain of events, you were too late. It could have all been different BEFORE you came in (as I understand where you came in, that is -- I could have misunderstood.)

"Too late" how?

 

[the1kidd03]

I would have asked them the same question.

If someone came in to rob the place, and saw two cops sitting at a booth, who did they think were going to be targeted first?

I hate it when cops act outside of necessity. I appreciate everything they do, but it's not their job to lecture me on their carrying philosophy. I'd be willing to bet my next paycheck that I spend more time at the range annually than they do.

It's likely a bet you would win, if they were gun guys like some of our LE's here you probably wouldn't have heard this nonsense.

At which point I would have pointed out to them that they BOTH had their backs to the front door and the majority of customers.

 

[popsmoke]

I skimmed through all the pages and haven't seen if it's been discussed or not, but wouldn't that constitute an illegal stop? He wasn't in violation of any law, and there wasn't any reasonable suspicion to assume he wasn't licensed... so did they even have grounds to stop him?

If they told him to put his hands up (like they did) and he just looked at them and said, "Absolutely not. That's an unlawful order and you have no cause to detain me," what would have happened? If he requested the presence of their supervisor?

 

[popsmoke]

I understand it would make things more complicated than they needed to be. But I'd be willing to miss out on my lunch break for the opportunity to correct two false assumptions in the LEO community. I'd do it just to be obnoxious, which I know is the wrong answer... but if you're in the clear, you shouldn't have to compromise your rights to make things go more smoothly.