Officers just disarmed me in Subway, lectured and took my DL.

[mbills2223]

I agree with your statement, but unfortunately the way it's set up, you are presumed to HAVE committed a crime until you produce your LTCH. Until it's changed, that what Hoosiers will deal with.

Can you provide some documentation on that, or maybe just further explain? No offense to you at all, but I am strongly inclined to doubt that we are guilty until proven innocent in ANY scenario.

 

[Expat]

They made their own job difficult when they chose to disarm him with no reason to believe he was acting illegally. I don't know about you, but if I were carrying a gun illegally, I don't think I would be OC'ing.

Yeah, I am sure it is very rare for cops to run into morons that do stupid things.

 

[the1kidd03]

I agree with your statement, but unfortunately the way it's set up, you are presumed to HAVE committed a crime until you produce your LTCH. Until it's changed, that what Hoosiers will deal with.

And LEOs with THAT mentality will see their day in court learning that it's not "guilty until proven innocent."

 

[ArcadiaGP]

I agree with your statement, but unfortunately the way it's set up, you are presumed to HAVE committed a crime until you produce your LTCH. Until it's changed, that what Hoosiers will deal with.

And I think this is where common sense separates us from power-trips. An officer should be able to, and probably does most of the time, look at someone and decide if they honestly have probable cause to detain them.

If I saw the officers there, then turned and ran out the door... yeah, that's probably going to get me in trouble.

I don't agree with "You're guilty of a crime until you prove you're innocent" portion of this. I was doing nothing illegal.

I do agree that if I had my license, I would have felt MUCH more confident about rejecting the seizure (if given the chance to reject), and asking if I'm being detained.

Question - If I provided my license, and they followed up with wanting to run a check on the gun and my ID, could I reject those? They did run a check on the serial on the gun.

 

[mbills2223]

Yeah, I am sure it is very rare for cops to run into morons that do stupid things.

Haha...a valid point.

But on a more serious note, does the fact that some idiots break the law really make it okay for LEOs to assume that the rest of us are criminals...?

 

[the1kidd03]

And I think this is where common sense separates us from power-trips. An officer should be able to, and probably does most of the time, look at someone and decide if they honestly have probable cause to detain them.

If I saw the officers there, then turned and ran out the door... yeah, that's probably going to get me in trouble.

I don't agree with "You're guilty of a crime until you prove you're innocent" portion of this. I was doing nothing illegal.

I do agree that if I had my license, I would have felt MUCH more confident about rejecting the seizure (if given the chance to reject), and asking if I'm being detained.

Question - If I provided my license, and they followed up with wanting to run a check on the gun and my ID, could I reject those? They did run a check on the serial on the gun.

No legal obligation either way.

A perfect scenario:

Officer- Sir, do you have a LTCH?
You- Yes, sir.
Officer-May I see it for verification?
You-Here you go.
Officer-Thank you. Have a good day.

They aren't legally obligated to verify you legally own the firearm. Unless they have reasonable cause to suspect you of criminal activity.

 

[drillsgt]

This may be difficult for you, but try to put yourself in the place of the officers. You made their job more difficult by not having your license with you. No one likes to have additional work to do.

To this group you have made multiple excuses for not carrying your license with you. I don't accept your excuses. It isn't difficult to make sure you have appropriate ID with you at all times.

Cops are not perfect and they don't always know every nuance of every law they are charged with enforcing. Why not just fly under the radar instead of asking for scrutiny? Eventually you will make a misstep.

I can put myself in the officers place, but I know I wouldn't treat him like an idiot and publicly berate and try to humiliate him in front of a restaurant full of people. This encounter had the opportunity to be a +1 (regardless of the firearm snatching) but instead they decided to run their mouths with ridiculous statements. If I can treat basic trainees better than these clowns did the OP, somethings wrong. Perhaps they were young and inexperienced like our new Drills that take their cues from Full Metal Jacket.

 

[japartridge]

It's easy to say all the "I would have said" and "I would have done this..." comments. But when you're in that situation, with 25 people staring at you, it's uncomforting to try and push back like that.

Been there, done that... it does suck, that's why you have to be mentally prepared for these kinds of stops... I was at the Subway yesterday afternoon near 86th and College... OC'd and no one said a peep, of course the LTCH gestapo wasn't there at the time. So far in Indy and Fishers I've not had a single encounter. About the only thing I've had is one guy leaving Yats say "don't shoot me" while laughing....

 

[the1kidd03]

I can put myself in the officers place, but I know I wouldn't treat him like an idiot and publicly berate and try to humiliate him in front of a restaurant full of people. This encounter had the opportunity to be a +1 (regardless of the firearm snatching) but instead they decided to run their mouths with ridiculous statements. If I can treat basic trainees better than these clowns did the OP, somethings wrong. Perhaps they were young and inexperienced like our new Drills that take their cues from Full Metal Jacket.

Good point. I didn't even think to notice rank. One of them very likely was a probationary officer since they got into the same car.

 

[japartridge]

Agreed, but first he should probably learn to do it right. OCing, not carrying LTCH, and with a suspended license. Sorry, but that's a recipe for fail.

ETA: "fail" is probably too strong. It's a recipe for interactions that will be less pleasant and less productive, in terms of education, than they could have been.

Wait, are you saying that OC'ing is a recipe for fail?

 

[TheReaper]

Can you provide some documentation on that, or maybe just further explain? No offense to you at all, but I am strongly inclined to doubt that we are guilty until proven innocent in ANY scenario.

Is it against the law to carry a handgun in Indiana open or concealed WITHOUT a LTCH? Yes, it is, so if an officer see's you carrying a firearm, you are committing a crime without a LTCH. SO, does he have the legal right to walk over to you, ask for your LTCH and prove that you are NOT in violation of the state criminal code? Yes, he can. It's as simple as that, carrying a handgun in Indiana is a criminal offense UNLESS you have a LTCH and show it.

 

[japartridge]

Honestly, I haven't been carrying mine because it's falling apart from going through the washer so many times. It'd be nice if it were a real "license" sort of material, rather than a piece of paper. I laminate, but even that doesn't help too much :P

Didn't you make copies???!!!?? If not, pony up the $20 and get a re-print from the state, and before you sign, or laminate, copy it, or even better yet, do a High-res scan of it and save the image... most copy stores have the "pretty pink paper" to print it out on. Keep a copy in the car(s), range bag, work, etc... never hurts to have multiple copies around.

*only keep one at work if you can conceal it/you have a gun friendly employer*

 

[the1kidd03]

Is it against the law to carry a handgun in Indiana open or concealed WITHOUT a LTCH?

Unless you're defining "without" as "not having obtained one from the state" then you would be correct. You are not legally obligated to have it ON you though.

Merely carrying a gun is not sufficient probable cause to suspect. Yes it is illegal to carry without having been issued a LTCH however, choosing to OC does not inherently make you a criminal or guilty of not having a LTCH. If anything, it would be reason to suspect the person is well informed of the laws and does have a LTCH. Show me a video/example of ONE person who chose to OC and was illegal in doing so within our statutes which would warrant reason to suspect the OPPOSITE of the "norm."

 

[ArcadiaGP]

So I was discussing this with my boss. Apparently she went to that Subway yesterday as well, after the incident.

She said she saw a cop car driving slowly at the back of the lot looking at the Subway. Probably waiting to see if I would try to drive out of there. So, yeah, they stuck around.

I guess the 2nd officer wasn't lying when he said they had nothing better to do.

 

[the1kidd03]

So I was discussing this with my boss. Apparently she went to that Subway yesterday as well, after the incident.

She said she saw a cop car driving slowly at the back of the lot looking at the Subway. Probably waiting to see if I would try to drive out of there. So, yeah, they stuck around.

I guess the 2nd officer wasn't lying when he said they had nothing better to do.

Don't you love seeing where our taxes go....

 

[public servant]

She said she saw a cop car driving slowly at the back of the lot looking at the Subway. Probably waiting to see if I would try to drive out of there. So, yeah, they stuck around.

Or maybe it was another cop looking for someplace to eat lunch?

 

[Justin Case]

Is it against the law to carry a handgun in Indiana open or concealed WITHOUT a LTCH? Yes, it is, so if an officer see's you carrying a firearm, you are committing a crime without a LTCH. SO, does he have the legal right to walk over to you, ask for your LTCH and prove that you are NOT in violation of the state criminal code? Yes, he can. It's as simple as that, carrying a handgun in Indiana is a criminal offense UNLESS you have a LTCH and show it.

This ^^^^^

 

[CathyInBlue]

Is it against the law to carry a handgun in Indiana open or concealed WITHOUT a LTCH? Yes, it is, so if an officer see's you carrying a firearm, you are committing a crime without a LTCH. SO, does he have the legal right to walk over to you, ask for your LTCH and prove that you are NOT in violation of the state criminal code? Yes, he can. It's as simple as that, carrying a handgun in Indiana is a criminal offense UNLESS you have a LTCH and show it.

IC 35-47-2-1 and -2-2 give a myriad of exceptions to the requirement to be licensed. Couple of the big ones, being one of your brothers in blue, being on property you have an ownership interest in, being on the property of someone who has given you verbal permission to carry. But you're right. I don't expect police to know every nuance of the laws they try to enforce. I just expect them to take their medicine when they enforce non-law as law.

 

[japartridge]

Let me get this straight if you are not required to have your license on you and you are caught carrying the officers are just suppose to take your word for it? Then why bother obtaining the license in the first place. As for the DL they only have the word of the DMV to go by. They advised the officers your DL has been suspended. Your firearm was returned to you after they verified your LTCH. I fail to see the problem.

NO, they can easily obtain your status with your name, birth date and address...

I personally don't see the reason for the police officers to bother the OP at all unless he was doing something wrong. And before anyone starts blasting me that "carrying without a license is illegal", so is driving without a license, but you don't see a lot of officers randomly stopping drivers to verify their license. Police are there to enforce laws, meaning if one is broken, they should enforce... no law broken, then STFU and leave the citizen alone.

 

[japartridge]

Couldn't agree more, which is why I'm in favor of TRUE CC, Constitutional Carry.

The problem is that he was accosted by police for exercising a right which was endowed to us by our Creator. Stopping every person OC'ing to see if they have an LTCH (which shouldn't even be required, but that's another discussion for another day) is akin to stopping every driver on a public road to see if they have a license to operate the vehicle.

^^^^^^^
EXACTLY THIS!!!