Four Minneapolis officers fired after death of black man

[Tombs]

Maybe you should have kept reading.

Read the last sentence of my post, it demolishes the argument you made.

"If the crux of your argument is that they're jealous because they see people with more money than them, that is a cultural problem, not a poverty problem."

 

[PaulF]

The highlighted paragraph is all about personal responsibility. Personal responsibility is the thing enables liberty because it makes people trustworthy enough not to be tyrannized. It's not imbued at birth to white people and then just skips over black people. It's taught. That's environmental. If you don't teach your kids, they won't have it. If you don't have it, your kids likely won't either, unless they're fortunate enough to learn it from someone else. Your personal responsibility was taught to you, likely by your family in an environment where personal responsibility was a priority.

Black people teach their kids personal responsibility too, just like white people do. And some white people don't teach their kids personal responsibility. But in inner cities it's less so. For whatever reasons. That's environmental. In other words, they're not born with any more innate desire for violence than anyone else. We're all pretty much running the same firmware. To not exercise our basic desires for self, we must learn discipline, usually taught to us by our parents.

I think it highlights a classic divide: rural/urban.

Rural people pride themselves in being able to rise to the occasion and solve problems for themselves. Much of this is necessity...when the closest hospital is an hour away - and so is the local deputy - you have considerable incentive to take action yourself. The thing is, the types of problems that the rural life presents are often very different from those that city life presents. In the country the struggle is oneself against nature and the struggles that come from living a more isolated life.

In urban life problems are much more likely to involve other people...and so are the solutions.

People in urban settings are raised, at least from the time they enter public school, to believe in the power of municipal authority and to accept its place in their lives. When there isn't enough money at home for food...the school will feed you. Need to get checked for glasses, spine curvature, or hearing loss? NP, the school has you covered. Sick or injured? When mom worked full time her insurance only kicked in after tens of thousands of dollars of out of pocket expense, but after filing for medicaid you can see the doctor regularly. When it comes time to move out and get a place of your own, the allure of section 8 can be all too strong, especially when you grew up that way. When you have a problem in your daily life the police, CPS, and the courts are *right there*...whether you want their attention or not.

I think that's a big part of it...government is present everywhere you look in the city and the suburbs, and it's just *accepted* that responsibility is something the government assigns, and it doesn't work in your favor to take more upon yourself in that perspective.

 

[tbhausen]

I think it highlights a classic divide: rural/urban.

Rural people pride themselves in being able to rise to the occasion and solve problems for themselves. Much of this is necessity...when the closest hospital is an hour away - and so is the local deputy - you have considerable incentive to take action yourself. The thing is, the types of problems that the rural life presents are often very different from those that city life presents. In the country the struggle is oneself against nature and the struggles that come from living a more isolated life.

In urban life problems are much more likely to involve other people...and so are the solutions.

People in urban settings are raised, at least from the time they enter public school, to believe in the power of municipal authority and to accept its place in their lives. When there isn't enough money at home for food...the school will feed you. Need to get checked for glasses, spine curvature, or hearing loss? NP, the school has you covered. Sick or injured? When mom worked full time her insurance only kicked in after tens of thousands of dollars of out of pocket expense, but after filing for medicaid you can see the doctor regularly. When it comes time to move out and get a place of your own, the allure of section 8 can be all too strong, especially when you grew up that way. When you have a problem in your daily life the police, CPS, and the courts are *right there*...whether you want their attention or not.

I think that's a big part of it...government is present everywhere you look in the city and the suburbs, and it's just *accepted* that responsibility is something the government assigns, and it doesn't work in your favor to take more upon yourself in that perspective.

Bracken Chronicles chapter 2

 

[ArcadiaGP]

https://twitter.com/realDonaldTrump/status/1275258921704402945

Numerous people arrested in D.C. for the disgraceful vandalism, in Lafayette Park, of the magnificent Statue of Andrew Jackson, in addition to the exterior defacing of St. John’s Church across the street. 10 years in prison under the Veteran’s Memorial Preservation Act. Beware!

Think anyone arrested will actually go to jail for 10 years? Would be nice, but I assume they'll just be bailed out

 

[Alpo]

Let the beat downs commence.

Enough of this happy horse ****.

And please stop sending $600 per week to these morons.

 

[tbhausen]

Let the beat downs commence.

Enough of this happy horse ****.

And please stop sending $600 per week to these morons.

Seconded.

 

[nonobaddog]

I wonder how much it will really take to get the masses completely fed up with this.
And then what more will it take for the bat-**** crazy politicians to realize it.
And what will be left of the urban areas when that finally happens.
It looks like we are not even close yet and things will have to get pretty bad.

 

[Tombs]

https://twitter.com/realDonaldTrump/status/1275258921704402945



Think anyone arrested will actually go to jail for 10 years? Would be nice, but I assume they'll just be bailed out

That's death penalty material under sedition.

10 years is an insanely light sentence for acts so severe.

I wonder how much it will really take to get the masses completely fed up with this.

And then what more will it take for the bat-**** crazy politicians to realize it.
And what will be left of the urban areas when that finally happens.
It looks like we are not even close yet and things will have to get pretty bad.

The left will not stop until you are dead.
Nothing will change their mind. They want you and your family dead, and they think it's funny.
I'm so tired of people who want to live in their fantasy world where they think both sides are equal and that the left is somehow just disagreeing on a few issues.
I've been saying it for years, and if what is happening on the streets today doesn't get someone to understand this, then they lack the mental capacity to understand it.

 

[actaeon277]

Two things:
Perception can sometimes lead to a self-fulfilling result.
Perception, or what you think generally about group, should not dictate how one responds to the individual.

...oh, and I’m back on the prowl.

Welcome back Kut.

 

[churchmouse]

Let the beat downs commence.

Enough of this happy horse ****.

And please stop sending $600 per week to these morons.

I have nothing else to add here. Well said and a very simple solution to a problem we have let fester and grow. Just like BLM.

 

[jamil]

Read the last sentence of my post, it demolishes the argument you made.

"If the crux of your argument is that they're jealous because they see people with more money than them, that is a cultural problem, not a poverty problem."

That’s an opinion, not a fact. Of it’s all cultural then why does crime correlate so well with gini index across the globe, nations, and cultures. Also, most black people aren’t out there committing crimes, which if it’s inherently cultural, you’d think no person who is culturally “black” could help but be a criminal. But let’s say you are correct, that crime is inherent to the culture. That’s environmental. Culture is environmentally derived.

 

[chipbennett]

Responsibility has its place, certainly. It's one factor. One which I even brought that up in my post. But apparently people didn't read past a buzzword they're pre-programmed to reject. And what makes you think that I blindly accept it? Couldn't I just as easily claim you've blindly rejected it? Where does that get us?

It's not just poverty alone, and that was not my point. It's poverty juxtaposed with wealth. The Gini index studies have been global. Not just in the US. It crosses many different cultures, across nations. Areas with a high gini indexes generally tend to have more crime. Of course there are exceptions. It's just one of many factors. It just happens to have the highest correlation of the factors, and that correlation is fairly high.

High gini indexes mean starker differences between wealth in surrounding areas. So if everyone's poor, lower gini index, lower crime. If everyone has wealth, lower gini index, lower crime. But higher gini index, higher crime. Is it because of jealousy? I think there's a simpler explanation than that. People make pragmatic decisions based on cost/benefit. What do they want? How can they go about getting it?

So if you live in an affluent area where most people have comfortable incomes, there's obviously plenty of opportunities for everyone. There are few cost/benefit analyses that end with you thinking that you need to take someone else's ****. If you live in widespread poverty, where everyone else lives in poverty too, again, very few cost/benefit analyses make it worth stealing from your neighbors. If you live in a poor neighborhood that's near another more affluent neighborhood, now there's opportunity. At least I think that's reasonably explains at least part of why gini index correlates with crime. Maybe resentment could explain some of the violence.

But gini index is just one factor.

Correlation doesn't prove causation. And, there's not even a very strong correlation to begin with. (I'm looking at US crime statistics; how Gini correlates throughout the rest of the world is utterly irrelevant to the discussion of inner US cities.)

Also, it is only logical that property crime would exist where there is income inequality. People who all have a lot don't generally steal from each other, just as people who all have nothing also have nothing to steal from each other. It doesn't mean that the income inequality causes the crime; rather, it provides the opportunity for the crime.

People still make the choice to commit that crime - whether it is property crime or violent crime.

 

[jamil]

I don't have a dog in the whole race thing going on here (I'm delighted to hate people of all colors equally), but it's interesting that you put that the way you did.

I just had a chat with a coworker who framed liberty in an interesting way and it goes somewhat counter to your point. I only mention it because I did find it interesting and it's somewhat applicable here. His take was that liberty isn't about what "you" do as you're going to do whatever you want anyhow. Liberty is about what someone else is allowed to do. So, in his mind and as it applies here, it's the exact opposite of a personal responsibility thing and is entirely an environmental thing. I was reasonably inclined to agree with him.

"Liberty means responsibility. That is why most men dread it."

-George Bernard Shaw.

That to me is an axiom. It's self evident.

It's true enough that what a society allows defines the scope of liberty. In tyrannical societies, that scope can be very narrow, whether lead by a single despot, or a group of like minded tyrants (example: Nazi party, communist parties). But that's not the same thing as liberty itself. So it's kinda true that what you get to do is determined by other people. But it would be more accurate to say that the boundaries of liberty are set by society. Liberty is constrained by society. Liberty is the default until one or more persons with more power constrains it with the threat of force.

Ultimately the mob is the most powerful force behind the constraint of liberty. If a society is comprised of responsible individuals, more liberty is possible because of two reasons. 1) The mob hasn't any cause to demand less liberty (notwithstanding Karen). 2) The mob itself is comprised of responsible individuals (fewer karens) who don't manipulate the mob to constrain liberty.

So I think it's fair to expect that these statements are true: That liberty is constrained by the limits society decides are appropriate and that a society whose individual citizens are more self-reliant and responsible can coexist with more liberty than a society of people who are dependent and have less individual responsibility. Also, a self-reliant, responsible society will demand it. This is essentially the founding concept of America. It's now under attack by a mob of irresponsible people demanding less liberty, more dependency, and even less responsibility.

 

[chipbennett]

Thank you everybody for their kind words. Family is A-ok, but I’ve had friends that haven’t been doing all the great. Two have died from the Covid, and a bunch others sick. Between that and work, I’ve been run so ragged that I didn’t have time to mix it up on INGO. Things are returning to normalcy, so I be about a tad more often.

I missed Kut's return. Welcome back, and I'm glad to hear your family are doing well! I've been in and out myself, but I'm glad to see you back, mixing it up or otherwise.

 

[chipbennett]

It may go to show just how much NASCAR popularity has eroded, that nobody even bothered to start a thread for the Bubba Wallace "incident" yesterday. (Bubba Wallace is the black NASCAR driver who has painted his car with BLM for Talladega and who pushed NASCAR to ban Confederate flags.) So, this thread seems like the most relevant place to bring it up. Allegedly, one of his crew members found a "noose" hanging in his garage yesterday morning. As it turns out, it was almost certainly at best a misunderstanding, but more likely an intentional misunderstanding, if not a hoax.

The "noose"? Near-100% certainty that it was nothing more than a manual garage door pull rope with hand loop, that is installed on every bay door in the garage.

 

[jamil]

Correlation doesn't prove causation. And, there's not even a very strong correlation to begin with. (I'm looking at US crime statistics; how Gini correlates throughout the rest of the world is utterly irrelevant to the discussion of inner US cities.)

Also, it is only logical that property crime would exist where there is income inequality. People who all have a lot don't generally steal from each other, just as people who all have nothing also have nothing to steal from each other. It doesn't mean that the income inequality causes the crime; rather, it provides the opportunity for the crime.

People still make the choice to commit that crime - whether it is property crime or violent crime.

The causes of crime are multi-factor. Gini index is a pretty decent correlation. It's not the only one. Other factors also dilute or enhance the reasons why it correlates at all. Of course correlation doesn't prove causation, but I'm not talking about it as proof. I'm talking about it as a predictor. Correlation tends to predict outcomes, which is why it's useful. It's just saying that that if the gini index is high for a given area, notwithstanding outliers, it tends to have higher crime than other areas. Speaking of that, I made that same point that's in bold text. It provides more opportunity for crime. That only explains the correlation. I'm not arguing that it alters people's mindsets. I'm saying that we all have the same firmware and that given the same conditions we'd run the same algorithms. In other words, people are people and given the risk/reward calculation that's common among everyone, these numbers are true across societies and cultures, races and such.

And that's the relevant part when it is asserted that crime in the inner city is inherently because of black culture. Well, there are lots of inner cities across the globe with lots of crime problems, and they don't all have the same culture. But they do have many of the same features within whatever cultures, which are environmental. I'm making those points because the discussion is getting very close to racial/cultural bigotry, that "black people have a culture of criminality". It's true enough that crime is higher in black communities, but ignoring the external causes is not a good argument. Tempting as it is, I'll make no judgment about why it's ignored. I've been accused of using poverty to excuse their behavior, which is not true. It was just one factor in my analysis. But if I'm accused of saying that crime in inner-city America has way more factors than just "black culture", okay. Fine. I'm guilty.

 

[jamil]

Incidentally, the correlation with gini-index makes a good argument against the anti-gun zealot's claim that countries with strict gun control have lower murder rates. If you rank order countries by murder rate, rank order them by availability of guns, and rank order them by gini index, the gini index is a far greater predictor of murders than gun availability. An interesting visual tool, compare the lists. The order of countries ranked by violence is very similar to the order of countries ranked by gini index. Gun availability has very little to do with violent crime. That works across the globe, and that works for ranking US states. That destroys the argument that more gun laws (meaning less availability of guns available to citizens) leads to less violent crime. But then we'd have to admit that income inequality does have some negative impact on society. We couldn't have that now could we? (Don't infer more into that statement than is implied.)

 

[Phase2]

It may go to show just how much NASCAR popularity has eroded, that nobody even bothered to start a thread for the Bubba Wallace "incident" yesterday. (Bubba Wallace is the black NASCAR driver who has painted his car with BLM for Talladega and who pushed NASCAR to ban Confederate flags.) So, this thread seems like the most relevant place to bring it up. Allegedly, one of his crew members found a "noose" hanging in his garage yesterday morning. As it turns out, it was almost certainly at best a misunderstanding, but more likely an intentional misunderstanding, if not a hoax.

The "noose"? Near-100% certainty that it was nothing more than a manual garage door pull rope with hand loop, that is installed on every bay door in the garage.

The demand for racism is much greater than the supply.

 

[jamil]

The demand for racism is much greater than the supply.

It appears so. You'd think the mob would tire of assuming so much and nearly always being wrong about it. Then again, many people still believe "hands up don't shoot" was real rather than a lie.

 

[Phase2]

It appears so. You'd think the mob would tire of assuming so much and nearly always being wrong about it. Then again, many people still believe "hands up don't shoot" was real rather than a lie.

Absolutely not. They immediately embrace it as proof of their beliefs and often never even hear when the racism is debunked. It is justification for mob "justice".