Colorado Supreme Court Disqualifies Trump on the 2024 ballot

[KG1]

I consider the "natural born citizen" clause to be largely moot at this point. Obviously, naturalized citizens are still denied eligibility under this clause. But the original intent had broader meaning and impact, in a newly born country. Once all citizens were "natural born" by virtue of having citizenship through birth in the USA, the import and ambiguity of the "natural born citizen" clause was considerably mooted.

It's simple: if your citizenship in the USA is by virtue of your birth, you meet the "natural born citizen" criterion. If you are a naturalized citizen, you do not.

I agree that natural born and naturalized are two distinct things. The only argument concerning natural born is over who is and isn't such as in Obama's case. Some were trying to make the argument over whether or not he was a natural born citizen making him subject to disqualification under the 'natural born citizen" clause.

 

[Ingomike]

I agree that natural born and naturalized are two distinct things. The only argument concerning natural born is over who is and isn't such as in Obama's case. Some were trying to make the argument over whether or not he was a natural born citizen making him subject to disqualification under the 'natural born citizen" clause.

To me the bigger question is “anchor babies”. Are the children of non-citizens natural biennial citizens? Are babies born in the US by parents here illegally natural born citizens? Why didn't the constitution just say citizen? Why add the word natural? Lots of debate on this even though many seem to want to not have the discussion…

 

[chipbennett]

I agree that natural born and naturalized are two distinct things. The only argument concerning natural born is over who is and isn't such as in Obama's case. Some were trying to make the argument over whether or not he was a natural born citizen making him subject to disqualification under the 'natural born citizen" clause.

He produced a US birth certificate, at which point that ship sailed, without further evidence.

 

[KG1]

To me the bigger question is “anchor babies”. Are the children of non-citizens natural biennial citizens? Are babies born in the US by parents here illegally natural born citizens? Why didn't the constitution just say citizen? Why add the word natural? Lots of debate on this even though many seem to want to not have the discussion…

Well, the issue has been established that they are natural born citizens as long as they are born on American soil. "Naturalized citizens" are not born here and that is the distinction of what disqualifies them from running for POTUS.

 

[chipbennett]

To me the bigger question is “anchor babies”. Are the children of non-citizens natural biennial citizens? Are babies born in the US by parents here illegally natural born citizens? Why didn't the constitution just say citizen? Why add the word natural? Lots of debate on this even though many seem to want to not have the discussion…

Their citizenship comes by virtue of their birth. As far as I'm concerned, there is no dispute. There is nothing between "natural born citizen" and "naturalized citizen". One must be one or the other.

The Constitution said "natural born citizen" to prevent naturalized citizens from being President, obviously. At the time of writing, I'm positive that part of the intent was to ensure that only those born in the USA (or the colonies that preceded it) could be President, in order to prevent foreign influence on the federal leadership of the new country.

 

[KG1]

He produced a US birth certificate, at which point that ship sailed, without further evidence.

This is what I meant by my clarification to @Ingomike when I admitted that something cannot be self-executing without the contingent being placed upon having to provide actual proof that you have met all of the requirements for qualification first.

Apparently, Obama did that although his US birth certificate was called into question by what were referred to at the time as "birthers"

 

[KG1]

Their citizenship comes by virtue of their birth. As far as I'm concerned, there is no dispute. There is nothing between "natural born citizen" and "naturalized citizen". One must be one or the other.

The Constitution said "natural born citizen" to prevent naturalized citizens from being President, obviously. At the time of writing, I'm positive that part of the intent was to ensure that only those born in the USA (or the colonies that preceded it) could be President, in order to prevent foreign influence on the federal leadership of the new country.

This elaboration was what I was trying to get at, but you explained the reasoning behind it to further address @Ingomike 's question of why they may have distinctly called it "natural born" which I did not.

In any case once again I am in agreement with what you posted.

 

[KLB]

To me the bigger question is “anchor babies”. Are the children of non-citizens natural biennial citizens? Are babies born in the US by parents here illegally natural born citizens? Why didn't the constitution just say citizen? Why add the word natural? Lots of debate on this even though many seem to want to not have the discussion…

There were no illegal immigrants then. Not sure how that argument is valid.

 

[Ingomike]

It seems plausible that there is more to be fleshed out on this issue. Probably will be when Cruz runs under the America First banner after Trump is done…

 

[KG1]

It seems plausible that there is more to be fleshed out on this issue. Probably will be when Cruz runs under the America First banner after Trump is done…

In Cruz's case I thought it was already fleshed out in the lead up to 2016.

This was written about in a Harvard law review from 2015.

On the Meaning of “Natural Born Citizen” - Harvard Law Review

We have both had the privilege of heading the Office of the Solicitor General during different administrations. We may have different ideas about the...

harvardlawreview.org

"While the field of candidates for the next presidential election is still taking shape, at least one potential candidate, Senator Ted Cruz was born in a Canadian hospital to a U.S. citizen mother. Despite the happenstance of a birth across the border, there is no question that Senator Cruz has been a citizen from birth and is thus a “natural born Citizen” within the meaning of the Constitution. Indeed, because his father had also been resident in the United States, Senator Cruz would have been a “natural born Citizen” even under the Naturalization Act of 1790."

 

[BugI02]

I consider the "natural born citizen" clause to be largely moot at this point. Obviously, naturalized citizens are still denied eligibility under this clause. But the original intent had broader meaning and impact, in a newly born country. Once all citizens were "natural born" by virtue of having citizenship through birth in the USA, the import and ambiguity of the "natural born citizen" clause was considerably mooted.

It's simple: if your citizenship in the USA is by virtue of your birth, you meet the "natural born citizen" criterion. If you are a naturalized citizen, you do not.

I disagree. A natural born citizen is born of two parents who are US citizens at the time of the birth. An 'anchor baby' would not qualify, and for good reason

 

[chipbennett]

I disagree. A natural born citizen is born of two parents who are US citizens at the time of the birth. An 'anchor baby' would not qualify, and for good reason

The Constitution says no such thing.

Again, there is only "natural born citizen" and "naturalized citizen". There are no other categories of citizenship.

 

[KG1]

The Constitution says no such thing.

Again, there is only "natural born citizen" and "naturalized citizen". There are no other categories of citizenship.

I believe you are correct in that the Constitution doesn't specifically define what a "natural born citizen" is. I don't even think SCOTUS has defined it's meaning in any case review yet.

 

[Ingomike]

There was a reason the founders chose the words “natural born citizen”.

There will be no conclusion to this debate even if SCOTUS rules. This was interesting.

What Does the Constitution Mean by ‘Natural Born Citizen’?

The Constitution says that only a “natural born citizen” may be president. Political partisans usually define “natural born” to suit themselves.

www.theepochtimes.com

 

[KG1]

It would appear that Bug's definition is not absolute.

 

[BugI02]

The Constitution says no such thing.

Again, there is only "natural born citizen" and "naturalized citizen". There are no other categories of citizenship.

The U.S. Constitution uses but does not define the phrase "natural born Citizen" and various opinions have been offered over time regarding its exact meaning.

The natural-born-citizen clause has been mentioned in passing in several decisions of the United States Supreme Court, and by some lower courts that have addressed eligibility challenges, but the Supreme Court has never directly addressed the question of a specific presidential or vice-presidential candidate's eligibility as a natural-born citizen. Many eligibility lawsuits from the 2008, 2012, and 2016 election cycles were dismissed in lower courts due to the challengers' difficulty in showing that they had standing to raise legal objections. Additionally, some experts have suggested that the precise meaning of the natural-born-citizen clause may never be decided by the courts because, in the end, presidential eligibility may be determined to be a non-justiciable political question that can be decided only by Congress rather than by the judicial branch of government.

 

[KLB]

It was used once in 1790 in the
An act to establish an uniform Rule of
Naturalization

Nationality Act of 1790 - Immigration History

This was the first law to define eligibility for citizenship by naturalization and establish standards and procedures by which immigrants became US citizens. In this early version, Congress limited this important right to “free white persons.”

immigrationhistory.org

And the children of citizens of the United States that may be born beyond Sea, or out of the limits of the United States, shall be considered as natural born Citizens: Provided, that the right of
citizenship shall not descend to persons whose fathers have never been resident in the United States . . .

 

[KG1]

There was a reason the founders chose the words “natural born citizen”.

There will be no conclusion to this debate even if SCOTUS rules. This was interesting.

What Does the Constitution Mean by ‘Natural Born Citizen’?

The Constitution says that only a “natural born citizen” may be president. Political partisans usually define “natural born” to suit themselves.

www.theepochtimes.com

So according to this any child born on American soil or territory whose parents have an "allegiance' to the US qualifies as a "natural born citizen" Not to include children born of illegal immigrants.

The author also seems to suggest that Bug's definition is incorrect under the heading of:

What ‘Natural Born Citizen’ Does Not Mean​

"In 2016, for example, the media trumpeted a Florida law professor’s conclusion that no one born abroad could ever be natural born. The media also promoted an essay by two prominent constitutional attorneys. It claimed that any person who is a citizen at birth is natural born. Still another claim is “Only a person with two citizen parents is natural born.” Yet another is “The Founders adopted the international law definition of ‘natural born.’”

"All of these claims are false."

 

[chipbennett]

Quoting @BugI02 in an all-quote post:

Right. So it is incorrect to assert that "natural born citizen" must and can only mean "person born of two citizen-parents".

 

[KG1]

Quoting @BugI02 in an all-quote post:

Right. So it is incorrect to assert that "natural born citizen" must and can only mean "person born of two citizen-parents".

Since the Constitution doesn't specifically define the definition, that opens it up to interpretation. All I was suggesting is that Bug's definition is not exactly absolute because nowhere has it been established as such.