We are no longer free to practice Christianity

[finity]

Freedom is a uniquely christian principle, isn't it?

Not really. Ancient Roman & Greek citizens had freedom.

The middle ages which was greatly brought about by the influences of Christianity was particularly not free. Where in the Bible is the reference to this freedom you speak of? Free will? Maybe but not unique.. Other non-christian societies also have that concept.

Nobody wants Christianity to "take over a government" here friend.
The fact is that our form of government ( a republic not a democracy) is suitable for a moral people and not suitable to an immoral one. Won't work without the individual's own moral guidance being in the fore.

I agree but it can be argued that morality doesn't come from God & is not uniquely Christian either. Atheists have morals, too. Not all Christians lead a moral life, either.

In the end the people here in this country are given the right to worship as they choose or to not worship at all. The government should uphold that.

We still live in the greatest county on the planet, for that, we should all be grateful.

Oh...wait for it...I just can't resist....

Amen Brother!

 

[IUGradStudent]

Just to end the ginormous thread jack, the County has backed down.


So, we can all be happy again



Now, to continue the thread jack, I think it's clear that nearly all the founders were Christians and that Christian ethics and anthropology heavily influenced our founding documents. Thomas Paine and the Barbary Pirates notwithstanding.

 

[hornadylnl]

Has anyone ever been harmed by observing biblical principals? And don't give me the history of racism, slavery, etc ad those aren't biblical principles. The US is the largest Christian nation in the world and I don't believe we are the most prosperous nation by sheer accident. Christianity teaches morality that benefits everyone so long as people practice it.

 

[Crystalship1]

Has anyone ever been harmed by observing biblical principals? And don't give me the history of racism, slavery, etc ad those aren't biblical principles. The US is the largest Christian nation in the world and I don't believe we are the most prosperous nation by sheer accident. Christianity teaches morality that benefits everyone so long as people practice it.

Seriously?!?!?...... The crusades, the Salem witch trials, and the dark ages just to name a few.

 

[Crystalship1]

Just to end the ginormous thread jack, the County has backed down.


So, we can all be happy again



Now, to continue the thread jack, I think it's clear that nearly all the founders were Christians and that Christian ethics and anthropology heavily influenced our founding documents. Thomas Paine and the Barbary Pirates notwithstanding.

Only clear to those who wish it were so. Many of them were Deists at best and some writings would seem to indicate that others shared no faith at all.

 

[cce1302]

Finity,
The only thing that you have made clear is that you don't like Christianity, or Christians, or God. Where you're going with that, and why you say that to be founded on Christian principles we'd need to legislate the 10 commandments, I have no idea. Actually, that entire post has me saying "huh?" I guess if that was your goal, then you win. I certainly won't be discussing this topic with you any more.

Just to end the ginormous thread jack, the County has backed down.

actually that's kind of where the threadjack began. Someone said to take off the tinfoil hats, denying that the county had even threatened the Bible study.

So, we can all be happy again



Now, to continue the thread jack, I think it's clear that nearly all the founders were Christians and that Christian ethics and anthropology heavily influenced our founding documents. Thomas Paine and the Barbary Pirates notwithstanding.

You'd think that would be clear by now, wouldn't you?

 

[finity]

Finity,
The only thing that you have made clear is that you don't like Christianity, or Christians, or God. Where you're going with that, and why you say that to be founded on Christian principles we'd need to legislate the 10 commandments, I have no idea. Actually, that entire post has me saying "huh?" I guess if that was your goal, then you win. I certainly won't be discussing this topic with you any more.

I've got no beef with Christianity as a religion as long as it's adherents don't twist it to suit their needs to exploit others or try to force it down others throats by law.

God, no I don't care one way or another. I'm an atheist. So what?

The only thing I was debating against was the claim that this country was founded on Christian principles.

In as much as Christian principles are the same as pretty much every civilized society of the last several thousand years (even before Christianity came along) then yeah I guess your right. The places & ideas where Christianity differs from those principles the argument doesn't hold water.

To be logical & say that tgyhis country is founded on Christianity would be that some unique tenet of Christianity would have to be codified into the Constitution or major laws. If not then you can't make the claim. Can you show me where that is true?

You'd think that would be clear by now, wouldn't you?

Only if you ignore all evidence to the contrary. But even if that is completely true that still doesn't make the argument that the country was founded on Christianity. It only says that the Founders were exeedingly wise & didn't let their religious beliefs interfere with making good laws that protected everyone, not just those that agree with them.

 

[redneckmedic]

To be logical & say that this country is founded on Christianity would be that some unique tenet of Christianity would have to be codified into the Constitution or major laws. If not then you can't make the claim. Can you show me where that is true?

I disagree with you ....I think.

Your arguement is if there is no religious text in a law there for it doesn't derive from God...right? OK I can go with this... This will be a good debate if we keep it civil.

I hope this isn't too hard to follow, a little broken up I think...

So your argument is that if these laws didn't come straight from biblical text b/c; it just makes sense that murder is wrong and really has no grounding relevancy to the bible. That is a good argument statement. But it is a false true...only sounds good in words.

In the 1892 Supreme Court ruling in Church of the Holy Trinity vs. U.S. (citing 87 precedents), "Our laws and our institutions must necessarily be based upon and embody the teachings of the Redeemer of Mankind. It is impossible that it should be otherwise and in this sense and to this extent our civilization and our institutions are emphatically Christian."

But lets not count this fact we will take this a step further...Because law keep society civil such as God's law, so no matter how good a debate this will be a stale-mate. So lets look at other foundations of this country for Christian Heritage.

The President swears in on a bible.

Court systems use a bible to add a weight and balance of truth.

Indeed, the Declaration of Independence states, "We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness." These rights were derived not from a government that was transitory, but from a Governor who was eternal. It was the role of government to defend these rights and not dilute or remove them. (notice Creator is capitalized)

The nation's capitol has the Ten Commandments inscribed in the marble of the United States Supreme Court, that there is a beautiful stained glass window in the U.S. Capitol depicting President George Washington kneeling in prayer, and that at the top of the Washington Monument - the highest point in the nation's capital is embedded a plaque which boldly proclaims in Latin, "Praise Be Unto God."

This country left the old country because of religious dictatorship. To live a free life under free democracy and not dictatorship.

The fact that someone is insulted b/c they have to see the 10 commandments in stone and the government must tear it out, but I have to have a "tolerance" with my children and seeing PDA of two gay men is not just ridiculous, its a double standard and Constitutionally Hypocritical.

 

[hornadylnl]

Seriously?!?!?...... The crusades, the Salem witch trials, and the dark ages just to name a few.

Okay, in your bible, does it give you a call to arms to evangelize the world at the tip of the sword? Nowhere do I read that we are supposed to kill anyone who refuses to convert or have "witch hunts". I asked if anyone has been harmed by biblical principles, not have been harmed by anyone who claims the name of Christ.

I just don't believe in a world where we all materialized from a pile of goo and somehow we managed to develop a conscience and a sense of morality.

 

[Johnny C]

I have wrestled with this issue myself.

I am a Christian, and living in a totally Christian nation would be great!
Churches everywhere, Prayer and the bible taught in schools, Law based on the bible, the big 10 posted everywhere, Etc.
But...legislating it goes against the dictates of freedom.
How can I say "people should be truely free" then desire them to be conformed (legally) to my idea of a religious society? Ergo: a Christian one.

We set here and say, "look at those muslims there in (insert nation here), they rule their country by the Koran and oppress their people, ESPECIALLY WOMEN, who dont tow the line according to their interpretation of their holy writings and beliefs!" , and we advocate the same thing here?!?, only using the bible instead of the Koran?!?

I have known plenty of good, moral folks who arent religious at all, even athiest. Folks can have morals and not be God believing, but since these folks morals are based on their personal take on things, their moral codes differ from the Biblical codex of right and wrong. Morals, are a persons idea of right and wrong, religious folks just get theirs from their holy writings.

I could go on, but these are just my ideas, and I dont want to turn this into a blog

(Hey! if I cut and pasted the whole bible would that mean I win the argument by sheer volume of evidence!)

The issue isnt really whether the "Founding Fathers" were Christians or not. The ones that were obviously injected their beliefs into their writings and decisions, thats just human, the hard point would be not forcing others under the emerging system to have to "tow the line" That would quash the freedom they were trying to protect.

So as much as I hate to admit it as a Christian, freedom of religion includes freedom from religion, and our legislators have a difficult job indeed trying to please everyone.

BTW, it is true that it seems to be PC to poke fun at Christians but not anyone else.

And...only good people can be truely free people, the more thge masses turn from a high moral standard, the more the Govt has to come in with laws to reign in the masses. And this includes the gun issue. I love my guns and other freedoms and want to keep them, but the fact is more and more people cant be trusted with freedoms and they abuse them. As time goes on, freedoms are slipping away from us. (the lamestream media doesnt help here either)

 

[Roadie]

John Adams June 28, 1813, "The general principles on which the Fathers achieved independence were the only Principles in which that beautiful Assembly of young Gentlemen could Unite. ... And what were these general Principles? I answer, the general Principles of Christianity, in which all these Sects were united."

John Quincy Adams, July 4, 1837, "Is it not that the Declaration of Independence first organized the social compact on the foundation of the Redeemer's mission upon earth? That it laid the corner stone of human government upon the first precepts of Christianity"

Now, I found this quote on the subject on an Atheist's blog:

Many Christians believe that their religion was the basis for the founding of America and, therefore, that American government should promote their religion. Even if the premise were correct it wouldn't logically lead to their conclusion, but the premise itself is manifestly false. America's founders didn't want a sectarian, religious state.

Personally, I think this is a misconception. We are discussing two different things here:

1: a nation based on Christian principles
2: a "Christian only" government

They are not the same thing. Yes, this country was founded using Christian principles as a guideline. Our Founding documents and quotes form the Founding Fathers support that. However, did the Founding Fathers want Christianity to be the state religion, and the only religion? Of course not. The fathers wanted religious freedom for all.

These are not mutually exclusive concepts. For example: One can base one's life on Christ's teachings, yet still love and accept all. Our country can be founded on Christian principles, yet still welcome all faiths, even if that faith is "none". A "Christian" nation is one that accepts all, as Christ did. Christ ate with sinners, prostitutes, the lowest of the low, accepting all, yet never wavering from who He is.

I submit that a Christian Nation is one that accepts all, yet never wavers from who WE are.

(I just woke up, please forgive me if this post makes no sense, I will re-read it later and correct any errors, lol)

 

[cce1302]

Indyroadie- everything you said makes sense.

 

[redneckmedic]

1: a nation based on Christian principles
2: a "Christian only" government

They are not the same thing. Yes, this country was founded using Christian principles as a guideline.

I think you are onto a very good point here IR.Christians don't demand everyone believe or live the way they do (except the I kill for Jesus extremist). Being a good person and a law abiding citizen already puts you into a level of fundamental christian lifestyle. And that is what a Christian founded nation is, not a nation founded and inhabited by only Christians.

 

[Roadie]

Indyroadie- everything you said makes sense.

I think you are onto a very good point here IR.Christians don't demand everyone believe or live the way they do (except the I kill for Jesus extremist). Being a good person and a law abiding citizen already puts you into a level of fundamental christian lifestyle. And that is what a Christian founded nation is, not a nation founded and inhabited by only Christians.

Thank you. I wanted to get my point across while it was fresh, but I was still groggy, so I wasn't sure it made sense to anyone else!

 

[hornadylnl]

I'm not advocating a state religion either. It goes back to the free will that God gave us that was mentioned earlier. What most of us are complaining about isn't the lack of a state religion but the all out attack by the left and the non Christians in this country that are attacking Christianity and it's heritage in our country. Demanding this bible study to pay thousands of dollars for a permit to exercise their first amendment rights is not upholding their freedom of religion.

Anyone with a lick of sense knows full well that no government entity be it local, state or federal would have tried to pull this crap with a muslim group. You don't want to go to bible studies and church on Sunday? More power to you but you better not infringe on my right to do so. The non Christians have put on an all out assault on Christianity and are doing everything they can to marginalize us and prevent us from exercising our freedom or religion.

 

[m_deaner]

Okay, in your bible, does it give you a call to arms to evangelize the world at the tip of the sword? Nowhere do I read that we are supposed to kill anyone who refuses to convert or have "witch hunts".

Acts 3:23
"And it shall come to pass, that every soul, which will not hear the prophet, shall be destroyed."


2 Chronicles 15:13 (NIV)
All who would not seek the LORD, the God of Israel, were to be put to death, whether small or great, man or woman.

John 15:6 (KJV)
"If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned."
[NOTE: This single verse has been used as the excuse to burn alive thousands or millions of people.]

 

[Roadie]

Acts 3:23
"And it shall come to pass, that every soul, which will not hear the prophet, shall be destroyed."


2 Chronicles 15:13 (NIV)
All who would not seek the LORD, the God of Israel, were to be put to death, whether small or great, man or woman.

John 15:6 (KJV)
"If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned."
[NOTE: This single verse has been used as the excuse to burn alive thousands or millions of people.]

I believe those verses are meant to illustrate the burning of the soul, not an edict to burn people. Just because atrocities have been done in the name of Christianity, that doesn't mean that all Christians share these beliefs.

Do the errors of s small part of the whole invalidate the whole? This would be like saying that since some whites are in the KKK, all whites are racist.

 

[Spot Me 2]

Acts 3:23
"And it shall come to pass, that every soul, which will not hear the prophet, shall be destroyed."


2 Chronicles 15:13 (NIV)
All who would not seek the LORD, the God of Israel, were to be put to death, whether small or great, man or woman.

John 15:6 (KJV)
"If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned."
[NOTE: This single verse has been used as the excuse to burn alive thousands or millions of people.]

Don't just pull single verses out of context. You can make the bible say what ever you want that way. I can pull a single sentence out of a paragraph you write and twist it too.

You are missing the big picture.

Exodus 20:12 "Thou shalt not kill."

The christian values that are being talked about are found in Exodus 20:1-17.
You know....
1) "Thou shalt have no other gods before me."
2) "Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image,"
3) "Thou shalt not take the name of the Lord thy God in vain;"
4) "Remember the Sabbath day, to keep it holy."
5) "Honor thy father and thy mother:"
6) "Thou shalt not kill."
7) "Thou shalt not commit adultery"
8) "Thou shalt not steal."
9) "Thou shalt not bear false witness against thy neighbor."
10) "Thou shalt not covet thy neighbor's house,.....nor anything that is thy neighbor's

WHERE IS THE FAULT WITH THESE????
HOW HAVE THESE CAUSED ANYONE HARM?????

 

[Liberty's Teeth]

All of m_deaner's comments are taken way out of context. They refer what happens to non-believers upon their deaths. They have until then to avoid that fate of their own free will. If some crazy used John 15:6 to kill by the hundreds and thousands then they were most certainly the liberals of their time. Remember, man is not perfect, God is.

 

[hookedonjeep]

WOW! Is it an issue of overcrowding; like an issue with fire codes and exits? OR, has Kalifornia officially become an Atheist state? Definately not what one would expect to hear from a country that professes freedom.......