Trump 2024 ???

[rhamersley]

which we all know is horse ****

PaStE?

 

[KG1]

IMO, there is a candidate in the race who made a bad decision, recognized it later, and changed his course. THAT is a more trustworthy candidate. Everyone makes mistakes. Can one learn from mistakes and change course? What's the evidence Trump can do that? He thinks everything he does is right. He's incapable of admitting he made a mistake. To me, on the pros/cons, that's a big check mark in the cons column.

He did on the lockdown thing. Wish that "candidate" would do the same for his Disney debacle. He's too deep into that though. Can't change course now. I think that whole Disney thing is a political anchor around his neck. DUMB.

 

[jamil]

TDS!

TDS does exist. But the downside of that label is that Trumpers like to apply it to even fair criticisms of Trump. It's like they have to have some pristine, flawless image of the man. No criticism can stand so they rationalize or claim you hold positions you don't hold, deny it, rationalize that it's actually good, or deflect.

Irrational example:

---

Trump ****ed a porn star while his wife was pregnant. I think that shows low character.

Desantis is a folding chair.

What? How does that even address the complaint?

---

Rational example:

---

Trump ****ed a porn star while his wife was pregnant. I think that shows low character.

Yeah. That was wrong to do. But IMO his positives outweigh that, and I still think he's the right guy for the job.

Fair enough.

---

 

[jamil]

Wish that "candidate" would do the same for his Disney debacle. He's too deep into that though. Can't change course now. I think that whole Disney thing is a political anchor around his neck. DUMB.

Agreed. I think he's in so deep it's purely face saving mode now. It was an unforced error. I think his best political move would be to just drop it.

Back when that started, I disagreed with it. My complaint was that he's using the power of government against a company that said stuff he didn't like. I got a lot of INGO push back even from Trumpers saying it was justified. But then when DeSantis became a rival, all of a sudden they discovered all the wrong reasons why DeSantis shouldn't have done it. None of those reasons were that the power of government should not be used to punish speech you don't like.

 

[KG1]

Agreed. I think he's in so deep it's purely face saving mode now. It was an unforced error. I think his best political move would be to just drop it.

Back when that started, I disagreed with it. My complaint was that he's using the power of government against a company that said stuff he didn't like. I got a lot of INGO push back even from Trumpers saying it was justified. But then when DeSantis became a rival, all of a sudden they discovered all the wrong reasons why DeSantis shouldn't have done it. None of those reasons were that the power of government should not be used to punish speech you don't like.

Well, you've shown the ability to be critical of any candidate unlike others as have I.

 

[BugI02]

View attachment 282867

More like this. Gives people a blank slate so they can imagine they see what I see

 

[BugI02]

Really? I would think that concern is open to everyone; not only Trump. I understand your hatred for Trump and seeming stuck on this covid thing, but really, the entire world was reacting to an unknown. People did what they felt was right at the time. Would they do it again? Probably! When given a situation that is unknown, regardless of history, it remains unknown. One unknown does not compare to another unknown so doing the same thing is quite possible.

What should be learned about covid is not what we “should not do” but rather what “to do”; that along with key points to look for.

The only value I take away from your posts is not Trump’s responses but your actually dislike of Trump and you seemingly look for every opportunity to discredit him, even when unwarranted.

The Trump / covid thing has been overplayed, isn’t it time to find another opportunity to bash the man? Time to move down your list?

I have to defend jamil on this particular instance. He and GFGT among others are concerned because Trump still insists that what he did was right. From that, they conclude that he has learned nothing. It is a valid concern

Personally, my conclusion is for Trump there is no advantage in what he is trying to do to make the admission they want. Just like DeSantis likely knows the debt is existentially unsustainable and reforms would have to encompass EVERY aspect of government, including defense and entitlements, but you'll never hear him admit that because he knows it would tank his campaign

And my suspicion is that if he were to admit what they want, they would just find something else to kvetch about. Intellectual heirs to TLex, perhaps; IMO they have always disliked the man first and then found their reasons for it later

 

[BugI02]

He did on the lockdown thing. Wish that "candidate" would do the same for his Disney debacle. He's too deep into that though. Can't change course now. I think that whole Disney thing is a political anchor around his neck. DUMB.

Isn't that exactly the behavior Trump is being criticized for?

 

[BugI02]

TDS does exist. But the downside of that label is that Trumpers like to apply it to even fair criticisms of Trump. It's like they have to have some pristine, flawless image of the man. No criticism can stand so they rationalize or claim you hold positions you don't hold, deny it, rationalize that it's actually good, or deflect.

Irrational example:

---

Trump ****ed a porn star while his wife was pregnant. I think that shows low character.

Desantis is a folding chair.

What? How does that even address the complaint?

---

Rational example:

---

Trump ****ed a porn star while his wife was pregnant. I think that shows low character.

Yeah. That was wrong to do. But IMO his positives outweigh that, and I still think he's the right guy for the job.

Fair enough.

---

Or maybe the first example IS rational

If you insist on listing characteristics you find disqualifying, why should anyone else be deprived of similar priviledge?

If banging a porn star while married is a disqualifying character flaw, why wouldn't crawfishing at the first indication of pressure on what is a correct viewpoint?

And when you do as you say we do and 'rationalize that it's actually good', 'How does that even address the complaint?'

 

[BugI02]

Cross posting. This is a very good read, see if you can spot your guy (or [not] your guy)

Sheeple in Leaders’ Clothing

We have never been so obsessed with the concept of leadership, and yet we have never been so confused about what it actually is.

americanmind.org

 

[jamil]

Isn't that exactly the behavior Trump is being criticized for?

It’s good that you recognize that the thing we criticized Trump about applies to DeSantis too. Completely different circumstances, but similar outcomes where both are making mistakes and should be criticized for. But…

You think Trump is too deep into claiming he saved 100 million people that he can’t possibly save face now? I don’t think it’s that. I think he wants to say he saved millions of lives.

Anyway, I’d have more respect for Trump if he said tomorrow, I’ve thought it over, and knowing what we know now, I would not lock down the country again, or push through a vaccine with an emergency use order.

I’d have more respect for DeSantis, if he stopped the Disney bull ****. But that situation was made unnecessarily more complicated through his unforced errors. All Trump has to do is overcome his own ego. DeSantis can’t just reverse course and give Disney their sweet deal back. But he can stop the spat, and maybe eat a little crow.

 

[Ziggidy]

Anyway, I’d have more respect for Trump if he said tomorrow, I’ve thought it over, and knowing what we know now, I would not lock down the country again, or push through a vaccine with an emergency use order.

What difference does it make? Really? Your request is juvenile because when faced with unknowns again, no one knows how they will react. The bottom line is you are looking for something, anything so you can justify your dislike for the guy. You hang on to this one little piece like it’s a bartering piece; if you do this (say this) I might respect you again.

Let’s be honest, you are looking for reasons to spew dislikes the man. You are obsessed with this Trump / covid thing.

 

[LeftyGunner]

What difference does it make? Really? Your request is juvenile because when faced with unknowns again, no one knows how they will react. The bottom line is you are looking for something, anything so you can justify your dislike for the guy. You hang on to this one little piece like it’s a bartering piece; if you do this (say this) I might respect you again.

Let’s be honest, you are looking for reasons to spew dislikes the man. You are obsessed with this Trump / covid thing.

The difference is that Jamil has stated that his approval or disapproval of Trump is not an issue of morality, it’s an issue of policy.

From that perspective, it is important that Trump recognize where he has had genuine policy failures in the past, and be able to show that he can course-correct if faced with a situation of similar scale if elected again.

This is perfectly reasonable, and illustrates an irrational view of Trump on your part…you are looking for reasons to support your approval of the guy whether that is based in emotion or fact.

You can lob those accusations of genuine dislike of Trump my way all you want. I disapprove of Trump morally, and disagree with him broadly on policy. I have a visceral, emotional reaction to Trump too…but in the opposite direction from you.

It it totally fair to lob accusations of, what do you guys call it…TDS at me. There is some truth to that, at least by your definition, but Jamil is wiping the floor with you here, just take the loss on this one.

 

[jamil]

What difference does it make? Really?

I think I'm going to have to start posting a disclaimer so that you'll know just to skip my post, because you clearly are made uncomfortable when presented facts which are not favorable for Trump.

Something like this...

Trigger warning: The following post may contain facts and opinions that ardent Trumpers may find intolerable. Discretion advised.

Your request is juvenile because when faced with unknowns again, no one knows how they will react.

Wrong.

We're not talking about unknowns though, are we. Lockdowns don't work. Lockdowns actually cause societal harm. We've learned that the hard way. Most of us, anyway. Progressives and Donald Trump have not learned that lesson. So this is not an unknown. If another pandemic happened does Trump know better now? I do. I assume, you do. We all do. Does Trump? Well, is he saying he knows better now? No. He's busy claiming he saved millions of lives. He's still claiming that the lockdown was good.

What did we learn about fast-tracking a vaccine? Hmm? Is that an unknown now? Would Trump know better than to fast track another one? What's he saying? He's claiming that his actions saved millions of lives. Maybe the cognitive dissonance hurts when people post facts that tend to shatter your image of a perfect being. Isn't it easier for you to just say, yeah, Trump is wrong about that, he should admit the failures of past decisions and show people that he knows better now.

The bottom line is you are looking for something, anything so you can justify your dislike for the guy. You hang on to this one little piece like it’s a bartering piece; if you do this (say this) I might respect you again.

This is just an excuse. I'm not going to deny facts that you find uncomfortable. And I've told you already how you can make me stop. I just need to say it once. You keep using these nonsensical accusations and I'm gonna keep rebutting with those facts that make you uncomfortable.

Let’s be honest, you are looking for reasons to spew dislikes the man. You are obsessed with this Trump / covid thing.

I am the one being honest here. You're not. Trump is your obsession, not mine. I call it like I see it. I've called out things I like about Trump. I've called out things I don't like about Trump. But anyone who posts anything negative about him at all, you think is their delusion, without considering how irrational it is to deny simple facts.

Trump's attitude about his own perceived heroics doesn't need to be a deal breaker for you. You still get to admire him. Support him. It is possible to bear people criticizing someone you support. But, it does require realignment of thinking. Trump doesn't have to be perfect. You can say, so what. But you deny those facts, yeah, I'm gonna keep saying the facts until you have a more reasonable response.

 

[Ingomike]

and disagree with him broadly on policy.

What policies do you disagree with specifically?

 

[jamil]

The difference is that Jamil has stated that his approval or disapproval of Trump is not an issue of morality, it’s an issue of policy.

Well, there's actually more nuance to it than that. Morality does matter. For example, Trump has shown many immoral tendencies. Porn star ****ing. Etcetera. Those identify him as a low character person.

But it is also about policy and outcomes. If I can get a candidate who has the policy, without those character flaws, I'd much rather have that outcome. But, in the general election, let's say Democrats could find a more moral person--remember, it's a hypothetical so let's put aside the very low probability of that--and the Democrat pushes idiotic clown world policies, I'll put the policies at a higher priority than the low character of the person.

From that perspective, it is important that Trump recognize where he has had genuine policy failures in the past, and be able to show that he can course-correct if faced with a situation of similar scale if elected again.

This is exactly my problem with it. It's absolutely a legitimate complaint that Trump has not shown a capacity to correct himself. He has to be able to admit fault before he can acknowledge a need for course change. It's what pissed me off about GWB so much. He kept saying "stay the course" when it was intuitively obvious to any serious person that the course was retarded.

This is perfectly reasonable, and illustrates an irrational view of Trump on your part…you are looking for reasons to support your approval of the guy whether that is based in emotion or fact.

You can lob those accusations of genuine dislike of Trump my way all you want. I disapprove of Trump morally, and disagree with him broadly on policy. I have a visceral, emotional reaction to Trump too…but in the opposite direction from you.

It it totally fair to lob accusations of, what do you guys call it…TDS at me. There is some truth to that, at least by your definition, but Jamil is wiping the floor with you here, just take the loss on this one.

I have an emotional reaction to clown-world policies of Democrats. I have no emotional reaction of Trump. I don't hate him. I think, despite his flaws, the press and Democrats have made a straw monster for everyone to attack with utmost hate and vitriol. I don't think of Trump that way at all. I have no problem voting for him a 3rd time if the choice is between Trump and clown-world.

But. I'm gonna speak up about facts which I think are important. I have no adoration I need to maintain, for any candidate. I am naturally skeptical of people who want to rule. And I think everyone should have a healthy skepticism of such.

It's important for the voting public to be capable of calling out even our own. And in this case, I think it's important for the president to have the capacity of self-reflection. That's a flaw in Trump's character, which if he could correct, would help him make better decisions in the future, thereby increasing his capacity to make America great again for a long time to come.

 

[jamil]

What policies do you disagree with specifically?

I mean. I think it's obvious. Imma go out on a limb and guess. Maybe near the top would be the abortion issue. Maybe he's not too keen on the importance we place on the culture war stuff. I suspect he doesn't agree with my characterization of Democrat policies as "clown world".

 

[1DOWN4UP]

"Three"
https://ninetymilesfromtyranny.blog...:~:text=à trois #1512-,Three,-Videos For Your

 

[BugI02]

The difference is that Jamil has stated that his approval or disapproval of Trump is not an issue of morality, it’s an issue of policy.

From that perspective, it is important that Trump recognize where he has had genuine policy failures in the past, and be able to show that he can course-correct if faced with a situation of similar scale if elected again.

This is perfectly reasonable, and illustrates an irrational view of Trump on your part…you are looking for reasons to support your approval of the guy whether that is based in emotion or fact.

You can lob those accusations of genuine dislike of Trump my way all you want. I disapprove of Trump morally, and disagree with him broadly on policy. I have a visceral, emotional reaction to Trump too…but in the opposite direction from you.

It it totally fair to lob accusations of, what do you guys call it…TDS at me. There is some truth to that, at least by your definition, but Jamil is wiping the floor with you here, just take the loss on this one.

If there's any floor wiping going on, jamil is doing it with the belly of his shirt while still wearing it

He just admitted that DeSantis made his Disney problems worse with unforced errors but he also holds Trump unacceptable as a leader because he makes unforced errors. DeSantis is supposed to lack the flaws in Trump's personality but I'm not seeing much evidence for that viewpoint, and the longer he campaigns at the national level, the worse he gets

I'll take the guy creating the draft over the guy trying to run the race drafting

 

[Ziggidy]

So this is not an unknown. If another pandemic happened does Trump know better now? I do. I assume, you do. We all do. Does Trump? Well, is he saying he knows better now?

You’re making assumptions that all pandemics will react the same, or similar to the covid “pandemic”. We never faced this before and did what we could, thought was right. We cannot truly claim the end results would have been the same if we did not lock down; could you?

It was an unknown situation we were faced with. It is happens again will the same actions help or hinder? Can you truly claim we should never lockdown again based on the comic actions?

Trump did what he thought was correct, and maybe it was. How can you deny or prove his actions did not save lives?

My support for Trump is not based on his reaction to covid nor is it based on how he feels he did there. My support for Trump is strictly based on the fact that we do not have anyone better at the moment. You’re claiming facts. The only fact you can prove is that Trump believes he did a great job with the covid “pandemic”. I cannot prove or disprove that.

The next “pandemic” may prove isolation is the right thing to do?