Russia vs. Ukraine Part 2

[Route 45]

I would like to see Russia push all the way to Poland. The quicker this ends the better. I feel for the soldiers on both sides at the front.

I'd like to see the Russian forces in Ukraine mostly destroyed, and the remainder pushed back to...well, Russia, where they belong.

 

[jamil]

I'd like to see the Russian forces in Ukraine mostly destroyed, and the remainder pushed back to...well, Russia, where they belong.

Agreed, but not on our dime. This is way more Europe’s problem than it is ours. They have weapons and resources they can donate. We have our own problems.

 

[indyartisan]

I'd like to see the Russian forces in Ukraine mostly destroyed, and the remainder pushed back to...well, Russia, where they belong.

 

[oze]

View attachment 286047

?

 

[Leadeye]

I still don't see an end to this war any time soon. One side or both will have to have their economy burned out completely.

 

[indyartisan]

?

 

[oze]

View attachment 286062

Ok, same map. What's your point?

 

[jwamplerusa]

Ok, same map. What's your point?

I think @indyartisan is trying to say "Ukraine has always been part of Russia". That is a little like saying the United States has always been part of the United Kingdom.

Expansion of Russia (1500–1800) - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

If you pick a date in the 1200's, France was a tiny little thing missing it's entire Western half. That area was ruled by the Norman Plantegenats for hundreds of years. So is France supposed to secede half its territory back to England because at some arbitrary point in the past a "King" ruled both England, Ireland, Scotland, Normandy, and pretty much the entire Western side of today's France?

Ukraine and much of Europe has been a seething s*** hole fought over by minor princes and other Nobles since the early hundreds. That reality is why so many of our forefathers left Europe and emigrated to the United States. It was an opportunity to go someplace where the feudal prince had far more difficulty making your life miserable. You might actually find freedom and liberty in the "Colonies".

There are pockets in Europe which have simply been fought over and coveted by many nobles for many generations, usually due to fertile ground or availability of other resources. Ukraine is one of those. It is also a place, somewhat like Finland, with its own culture and desire for independence. Sadly, it has again become another Nation's target for its location and resources. How feudal of Russia.

What infuriates me is the inability of the United States to NOT be the helicopter parent. Tell the Europeans to strip their militaries and destroy their OWN economies first. Americans have bailed them out twice and rebuilt them once. It's time they take care of their own business.

 

[Hawkeye]

I think @indyartisan is trying to say "Ukraine has always been part of Russia". That is a little like saying the United States has always been part of the United Kingdom.

Expansion of Russia (1500–1800) - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

If you pick a date in the 1200's, France was a tiny little thing missing it's entire Western half. That area was ruled by the Norman Plantegenats for hundreds of years. So is France supposed to secede half its territory back to England because at some arbitrary point in the past a "King" ruled both England, Ireland, Scotland, Normandy, and pretty much the entire Western side of today's France?

Ukraine and much of Europe has been a seething s*** hole fought over by minor princes and other Nobles since the early hundreds. That reality is why so many of our forefathers left Europe and emigrated to the United States. It was an opportunity to go someplace where the feudal prince had far more difficulty making your life miserable. You might actually find freedom and liberty in the "Colonies".

There are pockets in Europe which have simply been fought over and coveted by many nobles for many generations, usually due to fertile ground or availability of other resources. Ukraine is one of those. It is also a place, somewhat like Finland, with its own culture and desire for independence. Sadly, it has again become another Nation's target for its location and resources. How feudal of Russia.

What infuriates me is the inability of the United States to NOT be the helicopter parent. Tell the Europeans to strip their militaries and destroy their OWN economies first. Americans have bailed them out twice and rebuilt them once. It's time they take care of their own business.

The USSR viewed both Ukraine and Belorussia as separate countries at the end of WW2. They were two of the Founding members of the UN in October 1945. So if Indy artisan is, in fact, making that claim, he really doesn't have much knowledge of history.

 

[oze]

I think @indyartisan is trying to say "Ukraine has always been part of Russia". That is a little like saying the United States has always been part of the United Kingdom.

Expansion of Russia (1500–1800) - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

If you pick a date in the 1200's, France was a tiny little thing missing it's entire Western half. That area was ruled by the Norman Plantegenats for hundreds of years. So is France supposed to secede half its territory back to England because at some arbitrary point in the past a "King" ruled both England, Ireland, Scotland, Normandy, and pretty much the entire Western side of today's France?

Ukraine and much of Europe has been a seething s*** hole fought over by minor princes and other Nobles since the early hundreds. That reality is why so many of our forefathers left Europe and emigrated to the United States. It was an opportunity to go someplace where the feudal prince had far more difficulty making your life miserable. You might actually find freedom and liberty in the "Colonies".

There are pockets in Europe which have simply been fought over and coveted by many nobles for many generations, usually due to fertile ground or availability of other resources. Ukraine is one of those. It is also a place, somewhat like Finland, with its own culture and desire for independence. Sadly, it has again become another Nation's target for its location and resources. How feudal of Russia.

What infuriates me is the inability of the United States to NOT be the helicopter parent. Tell the Europeans to strip their militaries and destroy their OWN economies first. Americans have bailed them out twice and rebuilt them once. It's time they take care of their own business.

I'm not a fan of the various partitions that my ancestors suffered through.

 

[BugI02]

I still don't see an end to this war any time soon. One side or both will have to have their economy burned out completely.

Does our economy have any sort of firewall? I haven't seen evidence of one

 

[jamil]

I think @indyartisan is trying to say "Ukraine has always been part of Russia". That is a little like saying the United States has always been part of the United Kingdom.

Expansion of Russia (1500–1800) - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

If you pick a date in the 1200's, France was a tiny little thing missing it's entire Western half. That area was ruled by the Norman Plantegenats for hundreds of years. So is France supposed to secede half its territory back to England because at some arbitrary point in the past a "King" ruled both England, Ireland, Scotland, Normandy, and pretty much the entire Western side of today's France?

Ukraine and much of Europe has been a seething s*** hole fought over by minor princes and other Nobles since the early hundreds. That reality is why so many of our forefathers left Europe and emigrated to the United States. It was an opportunity to go someplace where the feudal prince had far more difficulty making your life miserable. You might actually find freedom and liberty in the "Colonies".

There are pockets in Europe which have simply been fought over and coveted by many nobles for many generations, usually due to fertile ground or availability of other resources. Ukraine is one of those. It is also a place, somewhat like Finland, with its own culture and desire for independence. Sadly, it has again become another Nation's target for its location and resources. How feudal of Russia.

What infuriates me is the inability of the United States to NOT be the helicopter parent. Tell the Europeans to strip their militaries and destroy their OWN economies first. Americans have bailed them out twice and rebuilt them once. It's time they take care of their own business.

I think it doesn't really do much for the point to say that at one time Ukraine was part of Russia, if that was his point, because so was Poland and Finland.

But, posting historical maps that show how borders have change over time is relevant to the conversation. Not so much to make the point that Ukraine was once part of Russia. But just that **** changes. Sometimes it's just, sometimes not. Should the United States be the world's police? You want our weapons? Buy them. With your own money. Don't have money? Ask your neighbors.

 

[indyartisan]

How many times have the borders changed in the last hundred years or the last thousand years?
Think you can stop it with enough blood and treasure?
We have borders here if you are looking for something to fight for.

 

[Route 45]

How many times have the borders changed in the last hundred years or the last thousand years?
Think you can stop it with enough blood and treasure?
We have borders here if you are looking for something to fight for.

Now do a 16th century map of North America.

You're starting to sound like Ben and Jerry.

 

[BigMoose]

I still don't see an end to this war any time soon. One side or both will have to have their economy burned out completely.

The situation on the ground, is somewhat like the initial German resistance in Normandy.

It is tough, but there is little depth to it.. no reserves. Wager group proved that, that behind the Russian lines, there isn't anything left.. the reserves are gone.. Instead of hedgerows, you have the entire soviet era stash of landmines.

Watch for a breakthrough, and you will have another Kharkiv like colapse I think.

The tide is definately with the Ukrainians now.

 

[1DOWN4UP]

The terrible destruction from Russian mines.

 

[indyartisan]

Now do a 16th century map of North America.

You're starting to sound like Ben and Jerry.

View attachment 286106

How about the 17th century?
The Russians had a colony in California, (Fort Russ) they bought the land for a few trinkets and blankets.

I had relatives on the Trail of Tears.
I am not looking for anything to be given or given back to me.
I had relatives from Alsace which has been Germany, France and part of the Holy Roman Empire.
I had relatives from England who drew a lot of lines on the maps people still fight over today.
You can borrow all the money the bankers will lend you and not stop it.

 

[jamil]

Now do a 16th century map of North America.

You're starting to sound like Ben and Jerry.

View attachment 286106

They obviously were not making the same point. The fact that the land no longer belongs to the “indigenous” people tends to further the point.

 

[BigRed]

Watched the talking heads on the tell a vision this morning to see what kind of bull**** lies they are telling today.

One of the shifts I noticed is now the tell a vision news narrative is "we" must win this war.

This is not our ******* war!

We should not be spending one ******* red cent on thos ******* nonsense.

 

[BigRed]

I still don't see an end to this war any time soon. One side or both will have to have their economy burned out completely.

For the time being, there is way too much money to be made on this bull**** for it to end soon.

My offer for $14B still stands....and is increasingly dirt cheap for anyone concerned about the cost of this bull****....but cost is not the concern....revenue is.