Politically Motivated Violence Thread PART 2

[Kutnupe14]

If anything, Keltner instinctively raised the can in response to the obvious drawing of a handgun.

You can't have it both ways. You can't say that Keltner was able to assess the situation and began raising his can in response to the handgun, and at the same time say there was no hesitation from Dolloff given that both had the same amount of time.

 

[SheepDog4Life]

This works both ways. 1.6 seconds from slapping some to spray already deployed... also no hesitation?

Apples and oranges... from hands up, to lift cover garment, draw to target and fire... is a lot longer than can already in hand by side.

Dolloff has hand on gun when the can is still pointed down... which means that Dolloff escalated to deadly force BEFORE any pointing of a bear spray can... so even IF that would count for self-defense, that the threat of bear spray allows lethal force, Dolloff looses the self-defense "protection" because he illegally escalated the fight.

 

[KLB]

You can't have it both ways. You can't say that Keltner was able to assess the situation and began raising his can in response to the handgun, and at the same time say there was no hesitation from Dolloff given that both had the same amount of time.

There is a physical interaction
Keltner is pushed back
Doloff goes for his gun
Keltner starts to raise the can.
Doloff shoots, Keltner sprays.

Keltner seems to see the gun and react. No assessment at that point.
Doloff draws and fires. No assessment there either. I challenge you to draw a weapon, pause to assess the situation and get off a shot in that time frame. The actual draw to shot fired is actually less.

Am I the only one that thinks there seems to be missing frames where he draws?

 

[chipbennett]

You can't have it both ways. You can't say that Keltner was able to assess the situation and began raising his can in response to the handgun, and at the same time say there was no hesitation from Dolloff given that both had the same amount of time.

Shooter was ostensibly assessing the threat attendant to being slapped in the face.
Victim was ostensibly assessing the threat of a firearm being drawn.

Yeah, those are, like, totally the same thing...

 

[SheepDog4Life]

You can't have it both ways. You can't say that Keltner was able to assess the situation and began raising his can in response to the handgun, and at the same time say there was no hesitation from Dolloff given that both had the same amount of time.

Would you draw from concealed on someone with a handgun in hand, by their side?

ETA: starting with your hands up? This was not a "threat assessment" and looking for opportunity to draw... he killed a man for slapping him.

 

[chipbennett]

Opening clip. By your “reasonable man” standard, the guy in the middle is the aggressor? He initiates physical contact on both subjects, and both knock his had away. Would they have both been justified in, as Jamil puts it “b)(&# slapping,” the guy?

The guy in the middle there is uninvolved in the altercation that escalated to deadly force being used, and both did, in fact, use essentially the same, proportional degree of force in knocking his hands away as Keltner used in slapping Doloff in response to Doloff's use of force.

So, I'm not sure what your point is?

 

[Kutnupe14]

Well it's obvious no minds are going to be changed. I'm not on the jury, nor are any of you. I see an guy armed with pepperspray, get into an argument with another, that argument defuses, and then he goes gallivanting up to a news crew telling them he's going to "**** them up," another guy intervenes in what I assumed was to prevent further hostilities, and knucklehead slaps him. Other guy starts to draw, and knucklehead raises his pepperspray… slow on the draw, knucklehead is sent to heaven. I have no issue with how this unfolded. Did he deserve it? No. Did he create the situation that was his ultimate demise? Yes.

 

[Kutnupe14]

The guy in the middle there is uninvolved in the altercation that escalated to deadly force being used, and both did, in fact, use essentially the same, proportional degree of force in knocking his hands away as Keltner used in slapping Doloff in response to Doloff's use of force.

So, I'm not sure what your point is?

So the guy in the middle is in the wrong? He placed his hands on the two guys. So you see no difference between knocking down hands and being slapped in the face? I'm trying to see if you think the guy in the middle is a equally guilty as you think Doloff is.

 

[SheepDog4Life]

This works both ways. 1.6 seconds from slapping some to spray already deployed... also no hesitation?

Apples and oranges... from hands up, to lift cover garment, draw to target and fire... is a lot longer than can already in hand by side.

For example, Dolloff has hand on gun and the can is still pointed down.

Opening clip. By your “reasonable man” standard, the guy in the middle is the aggressor? He initiates physical contact on both subjects, and both knock his had away. Would they have both been justified in, as Jamil puts it “b)(&# slapping,” the guy?

At :34 in your clip, you see the start of the spray discharge at almost the same time as you hear the gunshot... subtract out the time/distance for sound and they happened at best simultaneously.

Definitely not enough separation in time to say the shot was a reaction to the discharge of spray.

Hard to say, and perhaps better video from another source will come up in trial, but to my eyes, it appears the initial spray discharge was still pointed at a downward angle and rising in a futile attempt to stop and attacker with a firearm.

 

[chipbennett]

So the guy in the middle is in the wrong? He placed his hands on the two guys. So you see no difference between knocking down hands and being slapped in the face? I'm trying to see if you think the guy in the middle is a equally guilty as you think Doloff is.

The guy in the middle didn't escalate anything further. That altercation is in no way analogous.

 

[Kutnupe14]

The guy in the middle didn't escalate anything further. That altercation is in no way analogous.

Dolloff did escalate further until after he was slapped. I want to know if Keltner had slapped the other guy, if you though he'd been justified in doing so?

 

[IndyDave1776]

I think I am just going to wait for jury deliberations to start and flip a quarter to form my expectations.

 

[Leadeye]

After watching the news tape it looks like the media organization is throwing the "security guard" under the bus, so he's probably getting convicted of something.

 

[SheepDog4Life]

There is a physical interaction
Keltner is pushed back
Doloff goes for his gun
Keltner starts to raise the can.
Doloff shoots, Keltner sprays.

Keltner seems to see the gun and react. No assessment at that point.
Doloff draws and fires. No assessment there either. I challenge you to draw a weapon, pause to assess the situation and get off a shot in that time frame. The actual draw to shot fired is actually less.

Am I the only one that thinks there seems to be missing frames where he draws?

They aren't "missing", they don't exist.

The photographer "relaxed" the shutter button after the slap, apparently thinking that was that, and re-engaged it in reaction to seeing Dolloff start to draw... it wasn't the camera as it appears the D5 buffer can hold about 200 frames.

IMO, this is why Denver Post included all of the meta data for the photos.

ETA: And, FWIW, apparently the photographer thought the "action" was over with the slap, otherwise he would have held the shutter button down for another 15 seconds... his camera could handle that.

 

[chipbennett]

Dolloff did escalate further until after he was slapped. I want to know if Keltner had slapped the other guy, if you though he'd been justified in doing so?

Probably not? They are different situations, with different contexts, though; so it's fairly subjective.

Is a face slap appreciably different from a hand-slap/swat-away, from a legal perspective, in terms of degree of force? Is there any real purpose to splitting such hairs?

 

[IndyDave1776]

Lots of hair splitting. Personally, IDG3/16ofAF.

 

[jamil]

This works both ways. 1.6 seconds from slapping some to spray already deployed... also no hesitation?

We know from science that instinct has infinitesimally low reaction time. Basically zero. If Keltner was instinctively reacting to Dolloff drawing his gun, then of course there is no hesitation, but also, no intent accompanied it.

With Dolloff the whole drawing process is a cognitive, deliberate choice. Or maybe it was instinctive too. But given no context to justify it, even if it was instinctive to shoot someone after having been slapped, I don't think the law considers what was instinctive. Was he reasonably in fear of his life. Well, if he claims after the fact he (unreasonably) thought Keltner had a gun, I think it suggests he didn't really have a reasonable cause to shoot him and is just trying to save himself.

 

[jamil]

Probably not? They are different situations, with different contexts, though; so it's fairly subjective.

Is a face slap appreciably different from a hand-slap/swat-away, from a legal perspective, in terms of degree of force? Is there any real purpose to splitting such hairs?

Apparently. There are right wingers to drag. Not that Keltner was anywhere near in the right to act like an aggressive *******. But we're not trying to figure out if he was being an aggressive *******. We're trying to figure out if he was shot unjustly. And the context and evidence we have now, he was shot unjustly.

 

[jamil]

Lots of hair splitting. Personally, IDG3/16ofAF.

I think I may get a haircut today; jamil's hair is about 6 months long. Down to the shoulders. And frizzy because greyish. It's making my hat not stay on my head.

 

[Kutnupe14]

Probably not? They are different situations, with different contexts, though; so it's fairly subjective.

Is a face slap appreciably different from a hand-slap/swat-away, from a legal perspective, in terms of degree of force? Is there any real purpose to splitting such hairs?

You whole premise rested on the fact that because the Dolloff placed his hands on Keltner, then he was justified in slapping him. The situations aren't so different. Man steps between two others to prevent violence. He placed hands on the subject. How can you say that if Keltner slapped the guy its "probably not" justified, and then say that Dolloff doing essentially the same thing was the aggressor and thus justified??? Your whole contention was that someone placed hands on another, ignoring intent, and inferring that the action is unwarranted, possibly illegal.