Politically Motivated Violence Thread PART 2

[chipbennett]

There’s no way you could possibly know the last part. And in any case, you’re right the can starts to rise when Doloff reaches for his gun, after being slapped. No one can say if Doloff had made up his mind to shoot, or if he was drawing for deterrent effect. IMO, once Keltner started to raise his can, it was a quick draw... a stupid one given the disparity of weapons.

Drawing a firearm is not a lawful deterrent to a mere face slap, in that jurisdiction or likely any other. Further, we know that he drew with the intention of firing, because he made absolutely no hesitation in doing so.

 

[jamil]

There’s no way you could possibly know the last part. And in any case, you’re right the can starts to rise when Doloff reaches for his gun, after being slapped. No one can say if Doloff had made up his mind to shoot, or if he was drawing for deterrent effect. IMO, once Keltner started to raise his can, it was a quick draw... a stupid one given the disparity of weapons.

There’s no way you can say Keltner started to raise the can before Dolloff started to draw. The motion of Keltner to that regard in between the photos is ambiguous. The distinctive gestures of the draw are not. We don’t have to infer when Dolloff started his draw. It’s visibly obvious in the photo sequence. But you must infer motion on Keltner’s part that isn’t obvious.

If there was video of the scene we’d know whether Keltner raised the can before Dolloff drew.

 

[jamil]

Drawing a firearm is not a lawful deterrent to a mere face slap, in that jurisdiction or likely any other. Further, we know that he drew with the intention of firing, because he made absolutely no hesitation in doing so.

At least what we see from the photo sequence. Unfortunately there’s a longer gap that doesn’t tell us, but given the time between the photo that shows the start of the draw, and the photo of the shot, if he hesitated at all, it was as short as an example intentional pause could be and still call it a hesitation.

 

[jamil]

Oh. And didn’t the lawyer at the time say something about that Dolloff fired because he thought Keltner had a gun?

That kinda blows the pepper spray thing out of the water. The most obvious reason from the photo evidence is that Dolloff was pissed about getting bitchslapped in an already tense situation.

 

[Kutnupe14]

Drawing a firearm is not a lawful deterrent to a mere face slap, in that jurisdiction or likely any other. Further, we know that he drew with the intention of firing, because he made absolutely no hesitation in doing so.

Totality of the circumstances. There was a fair bit more than a “mere face slap.” There was a previous confrontation, a threat, and a person armed with pepper spray... and a contentious venue (the rally). All of those are legitimate factors to consider. And no, you don’t know that he had the intention of firing. There’s no way anyone can know that for sure other than Doloff.

 

[Kutnupe14]

Oh. And didn’t the lawyer at the time say something about that Dolloff fired because he thought Keltner had a gun?

That kinda blows the pepper spray thing out of the water. The most obvious reason from the photo evidence is that Dolloff was pissed about getting bitchslapped in an already tense situation.

How does it blow it out of the water? It doesn’t matter what he had, gun or pepper spray, Doloff doesn’t have to take whatever it is in the face, nor wait to find out what it was.
Question, remember the guy in Atlanta who was running away, and pointed the taser behind him and deployed it. Officers shot him. Good shoot?
Or what about Walter Scott? Old gun limping away, taser fails, and is shoot in the back. Good shoot?

 

[jamil]

How does it blow it out of the water? It doesn’t matter what he had, gun or pepper spray, Doloff doesn’t have to take whatever it is in the face, nor wait to find out what it was.
Question, remember the guy in Atlanta who was running away, and pointed the taser behind him and deployed it. Officers shot him. Good shoot?
Or what about Walter Scott? Old gun limping away, taser fails, and is shoot in the back. Good shoot?

He’d have to be a moron to think what Keltner had in his hand was a gun. The photos show he had the can in his hand the whole time, even before he came over. Nah, this is the kind of desperate excuse one makes after he realizes he done ****ed up.

 

[BugI02]

Drawing a firearm is not a lawful deterrent to a mere face slap, in that jurisdiction or likely any other. Further, we know that he drew with the intention of firing, because he made absolutely no hesitation in doing so.

Exactly! IMO little big man syndrome, the gun was his actual backbone and made him believe he could take on anyone for any reason. That slap, and being treated like the little ***** that he obviously was, sent him over the edge. The worst kind of person to become a self-styled armed security guard, no self control

People who never learned to fight place entirely too much reliance on a gun to get them out of a jam of their own making. Dolloff acted like any use of force training he received
came via watching old Miami Vice reruns, I sincerely doubt a properly licensed and trained security guard would have killed the man in that exact same situation

 

[BugI02]

Totality of the circumstances. There was a fair bit more than a “mere face slap.” There was a previous confrontation, a threat, and a person armed with pepper spray... and a contentious venue (the rally). All of those are legitimate factors to consider. And no, you don’t know that he had the intention of firing. There’s no way anyone can know that for sure other than Doloff.

You were never shy about telling us what Trump was thinking and the 'real' reasons he was taking whatever actions you found objectionable. I would think you could tell us what Dolloff's intentions were as well. Or does mind reading only work on people you disapprove of?

 

[Kutnupe14]

You were never shy about telling us what Trump was thinking and the 'real' reasons he was taking whatever actions you found objectionable. I would think you could tell us what Dolloff's intentions were as well. Or does mind reading only work on people you disapprove of?

I have body of work to make an opinion about Trump. I've known of the man, and the image he crafted, since the 80s. Dolloff? I have what 10 seconds.

 

[Kutnupe14]

He’d have to be a moron to think what Keltner had in his hand was a gun. The photos show he had the can in his hand the whole time, even before he came over. Nah, this is the kind of desperate excuse one makes after he realizes he done ****ed up.

Like I said, it doesn't really make a difference as to what he had.

 

[chipbennett]

Like I said, it doesn't really make a difference as to what he had.

In terms of the reasonable man standard, it most certainly does. And it is not reasonable to believe that the victim was holding a gun - nor is it reasonable to believe that the shooter's actions (i.e. interjecting himself into a verbal altercation and initiating physical contact) were consistent with the shooter believing that the victim was holding a gun.

 

[Kutnupe14]

In terms of the reasonable man standard, it most certainly does. And it is not reasonable to believe that the victim was holding a gun - nor is it reasonable to believe that the shooter's actions (i.e. interjecting himself into a verbal altercation and initiating physical contact) were consistent with the shooter believing that the victim was holding a gun.

Opening clip. By your “reasonable man” standard, the guy in the middle is the aggressor? He initiates physical contact on both subjects, and both knock his had away. Would they have both been justified in, as Jamil puts it “b)(&# slapping,” the guy?

 

[KLB]

He better have a really good legal team and they better get a good jury. I think they are going to have a hard time convincing people that he had to shoot.

 

[jamil]

Drawing a firearm is not a lawful deterrent to a mere face slap, in that jurisdiction or likely any other. Further, we know that he drew with the intention of firing, because he made absolutely no hesitation in doing so.

This is what I've been saying. More context than what is evident in the information we have now is needed to say it. So if anyone is saying it, they're inferring facts not in evidence.

 

[jamil]

Exactly! IMO little big man syndrome, the gun was his actual backbone and made him believe he could take on anyone for any reason. That slap, and being treated like the little ***** that he obviously was, sent him over the edge. The worst kind of person to become a self-styled armed security guard, no self control

People who never learned to fight place entirely too much reliance on a gun to get them out of a jam of their own making. Dolloff acted like any use of force training he received
came via watching old Miami Vice reruns, I sincerely doubt a properly licensed and trained security guard would have killed the man in that exact same situation

I dunno. It may be that the guy can handle himself. It's speculation, sure, but it could be that they guy was just pissed off that he got bitchslapped, lost control, and was retaliating.

 

[jamil]

I have body of work to make an opinion about Trump. I've known of the man, and the image he crafted, since the 80s. Dolloff? I have what 10 seconds.

Well, a body of work, sure. Albeit that body of work is mostly ******** conjured up to make Orange Man Bad. Like the Russia hoax. Or are you still pushing that crap?

And if you have, what, 10 seconds? and you infer what you do from that? C'mon man.

 

[SheepDog4Life]

At least what we see from the photo sequence. Unfortunately there’s a longer gap that doesn’t tell us, but given the time between the photo that shows the start of the draw, and the photo of the shot, if he hesitated at all, it was as short as an example intentional pause could be and still call it a hesitation.

1.6 seconds from "hands up" face still sideways to shot already fired and shell ejected... there was no hesitation.

 

[SheepDog4Life]

If anything, Keltner instinctively raised the can in response to the obvious drawing of a handgun.

 

[Kutnupe14]

1.6 seconds from "hands up" face still sideways to shot already fired and shell ejected... there was no hesitation.

This works both ways. 1.6 seconds from slapping some to spray already deployed... also no hesitation?