Politically Motivated Violence Thread PART 2

[chipbennett]

It's common sense Chip. A bullet is going to travel much faster than a sprayed chemical agent. If were able to see the exchange with spray in the air and a slide cycling, if a pretty much forgone conclusion that the whomever had the spray pulled the trigger first.
Here, look at it this way. If both men had firearms, and pulled their triggers at the same time Keltner and Dolloff deployed their weapons, who would be the first person shot?

Yes, a bullet travels faster than a pressurized aerosol - which is why it is likely that the pepper spray discharge was actually after the victim was actually shot. The order of events:

1. Reach for gun (shooter)
2. Back up (victim)
3. Raise/aim gun (shooter)
4. Raise pepper spray (victim)
5. Shoot (shooter)
6. Discharge pepper spray (victim)

Yes, it happened within a matter of seconds (or even milliseconds). But based on available evidence, that appears to be the order of events.

I'll posit this question: if the victim had successfully deployed the pepper spray prior to being shot, then how did the shooter get off a perfectly aimed shot right through the victim's eye?

 

[BugI02]

He's completely justified in drawing his weapon, after being slapped. The question you need to be asking, is if Dolloff would have even pointed his weapon at Keltner, if Keltner hadn't raised his pepper spray (which he is starting to do in the frames).

Keltner is clearly the aggressor. He issued the threat, he was carrying an incapacitation chemical agent, he was advancing on the news team. Your assertion that Dolloff is the aggressor, is simply put, nonsense. You contend that because Dolloff placed his hand Keltner he was in the wrong. How so? If your contention is correct, then our jails and poorhouses should be full of bodyguards; because they do that exact thing each and every day.

Prevarication. Those bodyguards interpose themselves, physically, to deter access to their charges

How many bodyguards have shot and killed people they have blocked physically? You should not conflate amateur security with the SS protecting the president or dignitaries. The men running interference for a Sean Combs or a Dr Dre haven't had to kill anybody, unless I missed it

Even Malcolm X's bodyguards never killed anybody, and his life was under constant, real-life threat

 

[Kutnupe14]

No. He isn't. The shooter initiated the confrontation between the two, and was the one to initiate unlawful physical contact/use of force.

That fact is indisputable, regardless of your interpretation of what happened afterward. The shooter was the initial, physical aggressor.

I dispute it. The first person to commit a crime under Colorado law, was Keltner.

 

[BugI02]

I dispute it. The first person to commit a crime under Colorado law, was Keltner.

I thought the 'first person to commit a crime under Colorado law' was the one acting as an armed security guard without the proper license

 

[Kutnupe14]

I thought the 'first person to commit a crime under Colorado law' was the one acting as an armed security guard without the proper license

You thought wrong. I choose my words with purpose.

 

[bobzilla]

I mean it’s ok because trump supporter.
Add purple as necessary. We all know why certain people are making and choosing sides. Same with the Kenosha kid. Same people saying the same retarded things. They don’t live in reality. Stop engaging them

 

[chipbennett]

I dispute it. The first person to commit a crime under Colorado law, was Keltner.

So, it wasn't a violation of Colorado statute for Keltner to initiate physical contact against Doltoff? For instance, Colorado Revised Statutes Title 18. Criminal Code § 18-3-206. Menacing?

 

[chipbennett]

I thought the 'first person to commit a crime under Colorado law' was the one acting as an armed security guard without the proper license

He's hanging you out on a technicality: namely, the difference between Colorado state statute and Denver municipal code - a distinction without a difference, since the incident occurred in Denver.

 

[bobzilla]

He's hanging you out on a technicality

WHAT?!!?!?!?!? Unpossible

 

[KLB]

I'll posit this question: if the victim had successfully deployed the pepper spray prior to being shot, then how did the shooter get off a perfectly aimed shot right through the victim's eye?

I was thinking about this. I really doubt he was aiming for the eye. More likely dumb luck I would think.

 

[kickbacked]

After all this time, you still don't have a grasp of the full timeline?

Shooter interjected himself into a situation in which he had no business interjecting himself. Shooter was the initial, physical aggressor, and therefore had zero legal justification whatsoever in using force - much less, deadly force - in self-defense.

I didnt ask about any of that. I asked what the guys t shirt said and what the argument with the black guns matter guy was about.

I'll posit this question: if the victim had successfully deployed the pepper spray prior to being shot, then how did the shooter get off a perfectly aimed shot right through the victim's eye?

Are you serious?

 

[Kutnupe14]

So, it wasn't a violation of Colorado statute for Keltner to initiate physical contact against Doltoff? For instance, Colorado Revised Statutes Title 18. Criminal Code § 18-3-206. Menacing?

“...or I’m gonna $&¥# you up.” Your clear on who said that, right? ...and more importantly when.

 

[jamil]

Yes, the slide is back. The slide cycle is after the pepper spray had been deployed. Look at the stills. There is a good 10ft between the two men, and at the moment the slide is cycling, the pepper spray had already traveled that entire gap. So you want me to believe, that in the time it took the slide to cycle (half cycle-mind you), that's spray was able to travel the distance between the two men, after the shot? This doesn't even account for Keltner raising his hand from his side and pointing it at Dollof in the first place.

Keltner was likely dead as he pulled the trigger on the pepper spray.

 

[Kutnupe14]

Keltner was likely dead as he pulled the trigger on the pepper spray.

Well, I’m at least grateful you recognize the comparable speed/distance relationship between the methods employed. Yours was the only other plausible explanation.

 

[KLB]

Well, I’m at least grateful you recognize the comparable speed/distance relationship between the methods employed. Yours was the only other plausible explanation.

The pictures show the can start to rise once he sees the reach for the gun. The spray was the reaction though, not the action.

 

[bobzilla]

The pictures show the can start to rise once he sees the reach for the gun. The spray was the reaction though, not the action.

Don’t bother. TDS’ers WANT people like this to die because they don’t think right. This is justified just in the fact that he was a trump supporter in many of these peoples books. Facts don’t matter. Only the feeeelz

 

[Kutnupe14]

The pictures show the can start to rise once he sees the reach for the gun. The spray was the reaction though, not the action.

There’s no way you could possibly know the last part. And in any case, you’re right the can starts to rise when Doloff reaches for his gun, after being slapped. No one can say if Doloff had made up his mind to shoot, or if he was drawing for deterrent effect. IMO, once Keltner started to raise his can, it was a quick draw... a stupid one given the disparity of weapons.

 

[chipbennett]

Well, I’m at least grateful you recognize the comparable speed/distance relationship between the methods employed. Yours was the only other plausible explanation.

It's also the very same thing I suggested: that the pepper spray was deployed posthumously.

 

[KLB]

There’s no way you could possibly know the last part. And in any case, you’re right the can starts to rise when Doloff reaches for his gun, after being slapped. No one can say if Doloff had made up his mind to shoot, or if he was drawing for deterrent effect. IMO, once Keltner started to raise his can, it was a quick draw... a stupid one given the disparity of weapons.

We don't KNOW any of it. I can surely deduce it though, since Keltner wasn't raising the can to use it as he backed away. The can does not start coming up until the gun is uncovered.

As far as the disparity of weapons, I bet he reacted. If someone is pulling a gun on you, I imagine you are going to assume he intends to shoot you. What choice did he have at that point? Stand and get shot or try to use his spray to stop it.

Here are the pics again for you.

You keep saying he was pepper sprayed. He was drawing before Keltner started to deploy his spray. He wasn't firing in reaction to the spray, the spray was used in reaction to the drawing of the gun.
View attachment 142332
View attachment 142333
View attachment 142334

 

[chipbennett]

“...or I’m gonna $&¥# you up.” Your clear on who said that, right? ...and more importantly when.

Why don't you go ahead an put it in context for us?