Not your typical .380 vs 9 vs 40 thread

[indiucky]

Somebody hit BBI with some rep.

Got him for you bro...I'll argue dang near anything with BBI but when he starts talking "real word" ballistics, gun fights, and crime..... I just shut up, listen, and make mental notes...(Except when he talks about chairs and transmissions)...He's like that forensic chick on Bones but uglier...(Not saying BBI is "ugly" per se....He is just not as cute as that chick...Although he does dress better)...

I had an obscure book from the 1970's written for LEO's I had picked up...It was written by a coroner on the subject of ballistics and bullet wounds....I gave it to BBI and you would have thought I had given him the winners for the next five superbowls.......

He knows his stuff and I believe one day will be well known in certain circles for it.....INGO is blessed to have him so willing to share his knowledge on the subject....

Don't get me wrong...He's still a Hilljack posing as a big city cop....But he is good at it....

 

[SSGSAD]

Like I said last time, when I see them in meat I'll have an opinion on them. If you want to use YouTube amateur testing as your basis, that's up to you. If you don't mind that it tells you nothing about bone strikes, that's up to you. I'd stick with professional labs using calibrated gel with a track record of replicating actual shootings combined with...actual shootings. The good news is it probably won't matter. You'll probably not have to shoot someone, and if you do they probably aren't that dedicated to sticking around. Ammo selection is a small piece of the over all pie. However, get a determined attacker and I'll take every small bit of the pie I can.

There are plenty of proven HP rounds available in any of the duty calibers. Anything smaller than a .380 is definitely best served with ball. .380 is just on that inconsistent cusp where it could go either way. When it doubt, err toward penetration. I've seen plenty of S&B FMJ shootings with .380 and know they will penetrate enough (and actually too much on soft tissue strikes). Why I'd beta test something based on what I saw on YouTube is beyond me.

I don't know who did the test, but you can do it yourself .....

Buy 2 packages of "cheap" ribs, (if there is any such thing), and 3-4 packages of hot dogs .....

Put one pack of ribs, then all the pack of hot dogs, and then secure them together .....

Stand the whole pack up so the bullet will travel through the ribs, hot dogs then the ribs .....

See for yourself, the size of hole, and penetration ....

THEN decide on what caliber, and bullet, you want your life depending on .....

JMHO ..... YMMV .....

 

[BehindBlueI's]

I don't know who did the test, but you can do it yourself .....

Buy 2 packages of "cheap" ribs, (if there is any such thing), and 3-4 packages of hot dogs .....

You can. Of course, hot dogs and living flesh aren't the same consistency. I'm not sure how close an analog pork ribs are to human ribs, dead and alive, but I do know that if it hits the flat or the curve of a rib matters in the real world. You can also shoot water, wet news paper, expanding foam, or a host of other things folks use to home-brew test.

Alternately, you can choose ammo that is vetted by real world performance and the labs professionals use that have a proven correlation between lab results and real world results. Not as entertaining, of course.

 

[rlfrye]

Your a healthy adult male, it's 2 am and you hear a big bump in the night, what do you reach for?
I own Glocks in .380,9mm, and .40.
If I could grab anyone of them, I would choose the .40.

My 12 gauge, backed up by my 9mm.

 

[jhart0990]

All very good points. I just purchased a shield 40 performance center and have been carrying it here lately. I had a dream last night that I shot a home intruder 7 times with my p238 and he kept going so I went and got my 229 in 40 and put 12 through him, much to my surprise he got back up and I put a mag through my glock 22 into him and he was still moving around. I ended up getting my S&W 36 in 38 and that finished him off. Moral of the story would be this has been bothering me since I carry my P238 a lot more often based on how easy it is to pocket carry and maybe not make a post before bed time.

 

[t-squared]

Like I said last time, when I see them in meat I'll have an opinion on them. If you want to use YouTube amateur testing as your basis, that's up to you. If you don't mind that it tells you nothing about bone strikes, that's up to you. I'd stick with professional labs using calibrated gel with a track record of replicating actual shootings combined with...actual shootings. The good news is it probably won't matter. You'll probably not have to shoot someone, and if you do they probably aren't that dedicated to sticking around. Ammo selection is a small piece of the over all pie. However, get a determined attacker and I'll take every small bit of the pie I can.

There are plenty of proven HP rounds available in any of the duty calibers. Anything smaller than a .380 is definitely best served with ball. .380 is just on that inconsistent cusp where it could go either way. When it doubt, err toward penetration. I've seen plenty of S&B FMJ shootings with .380 and know they will penetrate enough (and actually too much on soft tissue strikes). Why I'd beta test something based on what I saw on YouTube is beyond me.

I can understand why you're good with the S&B ball.....you've seen plenty of shootings where it was used. Have you ever seen any of the XTP loads fail to do their job?

 

[BehindBlueI's]

I can understand why you're good with the S&B ball.....you've seen plenty of shootings where it was used. Have you ever seen any of the XTP loads fail to do their job?

Like I said last time, when I see them in meat I'll have an opinion on them.

Like I said, if you want to beta test based on YouTube with your backside on the line, go ahead. I'm sticking with proven rounds.

 

[t-squared]

We've each gotta make our own decisions. I'm good with Shooting The Bull's methods of testing. Of course I have no way of telling if he's falsifying the results, but I can't think of any reason why he would. If there is .380 ammo that meets the IWBA standards, and my gun runs it without issues, I'll use it every day of the week over ball.

 

[in625shooter]

We've each gotta make our own decisions. I'm good with Shooting The Bull's methods of testing. Of course I have no way of telling if he's falsifying the results, but I can't think of any reason why he would. If there is .380 ammo that meets the IWBA standards, and my gun runs it without issues, I'll use it every day of the week over ball.

Not a criticism more of an observation with the Shooting the bull guy. His expectations of 12-18" out of a 3" pocket is just unreasonable. While a couple rounds we're successful in his tests (with expansion within the range) it's a pocket pistiol and just to get you out of harm's way. Not so much a sustained fire fight or taking down violent felony warrants through auto glass etc. So people sort of forget that when they migrate to smaller pocket pistiols.

 

[GIJEW]

All very good points. I just purchased a shield 40 performance center and have been carrying it here lately. I had a dream last night that I shot a home intruder 7 times with my p238 and he kept going so I went and got my 229 in 40 and put 12 through him, much to my surprise he got back up and I put a mag through my glock 22 into him and he was still moving around. I ended up getting my S&W 36 in 38 and that finished him off. Moral of the story would be this has been bothering me since I carry my P238 a lot more often based on how easy it is to pocket carry and maybe not make a post before bed time.

A bro-at-arms once told me about finding a syrian with 3/4s of his head left who crawled 20' (probably a glancing hit with a 50cal. Browning). Put enough adrenaline and meth etc in a thug and your nightmare could come true.

 

[JAL]

.380 is a low pressure cartridge and often chambered in small guns that are not capable of taking advantage of its capabilities. Older, larger, heavier, blowback action autos chambered in .380 have all but died out with the advancements in the single stack 9mm market. The leaves the .380 primarily to the pocket pistol market. There are exceptions of course.

Keep in mind that .380 is not a service cartridge and there is little incentive to "advance" it to pass LEO testing standards.

side comment. Now is a great time to buy a .40. I am seeing smoking deals on .40s. Good cartridge.

The .380 ACP (aka 9mm Short) has a long history of having been a service cartridge in Europe, and it served quite well. Archduke Ferdinand's (and his wife Sophie's) assassin used a FN 1910 .380 ACP pistol, as did the assassin of France's President in 1932. The M1908 .380 ACP Pocket Hammerless was the standard issue sidearm for US Army (and later US Air Force) generals from about the beginning of WWII through 1972 (when stockpiles finally ran out). It was the pistol used by General Patton to shoot at the German fighter in North Africa. Before WWII, the .380 ACP in one pistol model or another was the military sidearm in five European countries. The Walther PP, PPK and Beretta M1934 were among them. The Walthers were used extensively by the German police and military from 1935 through WWII (along with thousands of .380 pistols they captured), notwithstanding the popularity of the P38 within the Wehrmacht. The .380 ACP continued to be used into the 1990's by a number of nations:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Walther_PP#Users

To claim it's not a "service cartridge" is not entirely accurate.

John

 

[t-squared]

Not a criticism more of an observation with the Shooting the bull guy. His expectations of 12-18" out of a 3" pocket is just unreasonable. While a couple rounds we're successful in his tests (with expansion within the range) it's a pocket pistiol and just to get you out of harm's way. Not so much a sustained fire fight or taking down violent felony warrants through auto glass etc. So people sort of forget that when they migrate to smaller pocket pistiols.

Here's the thing, the expectations aren't his, they're the standards set forth by the IWBA. They're also some of the same the standards used by the FBI. He explains this pretty early on in the first video of the other thread I referenced.

 

[VERT]

Not a modern service cartridge.

 

[in625shooter]

Here's the thing, the expectations aren't his, they're the standards set forth by the IWBA. They're also some of the same the standards used by the FBI. He explains this pretty early on in the first video of the other thread I referenced.

Yes, and I have watched them however those standards are directed for a service size firearm. To expect a pocket pistol to have the same results every time is off the mark all I am saying. IMHO

The other thing brought up a post or two before this is often overlooked as well. The 380 was used in Euorope, the same as the 9mm never suffered from the failure to stop in all the years the European police issued it like the 9mm was blamed for bad stuff in the late 1980's here in the USA and they shot a few people over there in PIS. Just a quirky observation as well.

 

[BehindBlueI's]

They're also some of the same the standards used by the FBI.

Right. SOME of the standards used by the FBI, which means it's not the standards used by the FBI. That's the disconnect. Auto glass test isn't just about auto glass, it's also shown to be a great analog for bone strikes. It shows how easily the jacket shreds or separates, which happens in human bodies regularly and reduces penetration as it sheds mass.

But let's ignore that. Even if you buy into his tests, the .380 XTP is still an unreliable expander in ballistics gel.

[video=youtube;QhmJoIWEb0I]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QhmJoIWEb0I[/video]

As opposed to the extremely consistent 9mm HST

[video=youtube;-lGqdMdbir0]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-lGqdMdbir0 [/video]

Which goes back to:

The bullets are too light and the speeds too low to give both reliable penetration AND expansion. You can get one or the other. It's very tough to get both, particularly when looking at not over-penetrating with a soft tissue strike and still getting sufficient penetration with a bone strike.

Get a bone strike, and these rounds aren't going to make the minimum. That's a big thing to give up for the maybe-it-expands of the XTP. Which is why I would still use hotter ball ammo even if I were to base my decision off these videos.

If you actually care about the FBI protocols and need a small gun, buy a 9mm, load it with HST, call it a day. It's passing all the protocols from micro to service length barrels. If you don't, I'd still run .38 wadcutters over a .380 of any kind, but if I had to run a .380 I'm sticking with ball.

I've been to the terminal ballistics classes (both Basic Investigator and Homicide), I've read the text books, I've seen the meat results on the street, I've talked to the shooters and the survivors. I'm not an expert, but I've listened to those who are. There is more to this than just shooting a block of goo, measuring the result, and deciding "yup, it's good". Especially when you only do part of the goo tests.

 

[in625shooter]

Right. SOME of the standards used by the FBI, which means it's not the standards used by the FBI. That's the disconnect. Auto glass test isn't just about auto glass, it's also shown to be a great analog for bone strikes. It shows how easily the jacket shreds or separates, which happens in human bodies regularly and reduces penetration as it sheds mass.

But let's ignore that. Even if you buy into his tests, the .380 XTP is still an unreliable expander in ballistics gel.

[video=youtube;QhmJoIWEb0I]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QhmJoIWEb0I[/video]

As opposed to the extremely consistent 9mm HST

[video=youtube;-lGqdMdbir0]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-lGqdMdbir0 [/video]

Which goes back to:

Get a bone strike, and these rounds aren't going to make the minimum. That's a big thing to give up for the maybe-it-expands of the XTP. Which is why I would still use hotter ball ammo even if I were to base my decision off these videos.

If you actually care about the FBI protocols and need a small gun, buy a 9mm, load it with HST, call it a day. It's passing all the protocols from micro to service length barrels. If you don't, I'd still run .38 wadcutters over a .380 of any kind, but if I had to run a .380 I'm sticking with ball.

I've been to the terminal ballistics classes (both Basic Investigator and Homicide), I've read the text books, I've seen the meat results on the street, I've talked to the shooters and the survivors. I'm not an expert, but I've listened to those who are. There is more to this than just shooting a block of goo, measuring the result, and deciding "yup, it's good". Especially when you only do part of the goo tests.

^^THIS^^ And 'll add. People get way to wrapped up with gel testing. It's simply just a guideline. There are actually rounds that didn't perform well in gel but in real police shootings performed as needed. 2 such examples in 9mn is the Fed 9bp 115 gr standard pressure JHP and gasp the 115 Win Silvertip. Silvertip gets a bad wrap for the one round that didn't do it's hob quick enough. It was a fatal wound the gunman just didn't know it. What is lost and not to critisize the agent (uncontrollable things happen) he lost his glasses and thus approximately 18 other rounds didn't hit home.

 

[Bigtanker]

BBI? What type of ammo are the bag guys using (all calibers included). I can see the stolen guns having SD ammo but will they spend the extra $ on the SD ammo if they can't steal it?

 

[BehindBlueI's]

BBI? What type of ammo are the bag guys using (all calibers included). I can see the stolen guns having SD ammo but will they spend the extra $ on the SD ammo if they can't steal it?

It varies. We have seen more HP ammo in the last few years then I recall seeing early in my career. Definitely more duty calibers, less .22 and .25, although they still show up sometimes as well. There are some groups that are better organized and equipped. They are more likely to have good equipment, and may even go to the range together. They are also using long guns or the "pistol" versions, particularly AK pistols, in ambush of their rival teams. One fairly recent daylight assassination of a rival was done with an AK pistol quite effectively. These are not the main concern for those who aren't in the dope trade, etc.

Your more common street thugs (especially the addicts) are more likely to use ball, to have partially loaded guns or empty/nonfunctional guns. We've seen hodge-podge loading, where some is HP, some is ball, sometimes not even the proper cartridge (ie a .380 mixed in with 9mm). We've also seen magazines of quality HP. One police action, the suspect had a Glock, two spare mags, and good ammo.

It's tough to give hard numbers as I haven't tracked it. While I've seen everything from hard cast cowboy loads to modern bonded HP, ball still seems the most prevalent. In search warrants, it's usually ball and often WWB. Just a theory, but I bet if you were to go to your local Wal-mart, see what's on the shelf the cheapest you'd have a good idea of what's likely to be in the local thugs' guns.

 

[BugI02]

Oh, lets just all carry 44 mag, 50 AE, 10 mm.

But I read somewhere that a book will stop 50AE (sometimes)

 

[in625shooter]

But I read somewhere that a book will stop 50AE (sometimes)

If it were the book of IRS tax codes maybe