Mandated vaccines or weekly testing for employers of 100+ people.......

[jamil]

I had to laugh out loud at seeing that written by you.


Two out of the three vaccines didn't use those stem cells. Which should end this line of anti-vax reasoning.


A) it's my own tribe doing this (white evangelicals)
B) a majority of the people now concerned likely have some medicine in their cabinet developed using these cell lines.
C) it is anti-abortion, and not pro-life (they're not the same anymore)
D) there's pastors selling indulgences church memberships and exemptions
E) with other things (e.g. race) the response is, "that's the past, we can't fix it". But here we are worrying about cells from a deaths aborted some forty -odd years ago.

on the other hand:
A) these mandates are a horrible idea
B) if your employer accepts an exemption request (or not), well, I guess that's their perrogitive.


Tombs, weren't you calling out people for acting like Johnny Paycheck and marching out? But now you're advocating for people to kowtow and play within the system?

This is not true. All the vaccines in the US were developed using cell linings that derived from an aborted fetus.

But mainly I wanted to challenge this specious argument that people who are religiously opposed to these vaccines should also be opposed to aspirin because of those products have had research done using the same thing.

Aspirin was synthesized more than 120 years ago. It’s formulation hasn’t been changed by this research. Such research was conducted for purposes unrelated to the formulation of many of these other medications that supposedly should make this as immoral as the other. Production of asparin goes on apart from whether someone takes aspirin and decides they want to research something else. Thinking the something else is the immoral thing would be consistent without having to believe the production of aspirin itself is tainted by that other research.

That list you put together looks almost cut and paste from what I saw on the internet from someone saying the same thing you are. But it doesn’t look like you looked any deeper and took the specious claims as valid claims.

 

[jamil]

That's just one. Feel free to look up leaders from your own denomination.

I also posted a link from the (former) ethicist of the largest protestant denomination in America (did you miss it?)

Since when do moral leaders have sole discretion over everyone? Is there no room at all in organized religion for at least some independent thought? I’ve seen plenty of division within some churches over this issue. And it looks to me like it’s driven by different sensibilities.

And you might take that and say, “ah ha!” That is proof it is political and not spiritual. And that the spiritual leaders are in the right and the dissenters are being political. But there’s no reason it can’t be the other way around. The division I’ve seen is among leaders. Maybe it’s political. Maybe it’s spiritual. It’s human nature to assume you’re on the right side. But everyone is a “me”. Is it sure enough that it’s the moral leaders who agree with you are in the right?

Spirituality, faith, religious beliefs are a very personal thing. The courts and the EEOC advise that to have a right to a religious accommodation according to discrimination laws, one does not need to be consistent with the official position of a religious body. Or even belong to such.

So why are you arguing to the contrary?

 

[buckwacker]

They don’t own your body but there is a legitimate financial interest there. 1) they insure you. 2) they insure everyone else. Health insurance companies are certainly including COVID risks in their negotiations for future plan years. They may charge more for covering non-vaccinated people. They may charge companies more who have unvaccinated people working in proximity to everyone else.

Like I said earlier, if this is to be the standard, then it should be acceptable to charge higher insurance premiums to women of child bearing age, those who are overweight, ethnicities with lower life expectancies, gay people due to promiscuity, trans people for their propensity for chopping stuff off and sewing things on. Covid is not the black death or even smallpox. This risk is overblown, especially for working age people, but this overblown risk is being used as a cudgel to beat the populace into vaccine compliance by threatening your wallet at the least and your livelihood at worst.

 

[buckwacker]

Vaccines seem to provide some benefit. Given what’s happening in Israel and a few other places it’s obvious that vaccinated people can spread covid and vaccinated people can get covid. But the data look like vaccinated people who have covid tend to have better outcomes depending on their age. And vaccinated people have a shorter period of time when they are contagious.

So your vaccination status may affect others at least a little. Enough to justify mandates? Absolutely kot. That’s batshit crazy irrational nonsense. But, it does seem to justify insurance companies charging employers more depending on circumstances. So maybe that means you pay more for your healthcare.

The effect of better or worse outcomes is limited to the personal choices people made, not those of everyone else. There are many personal decisions that might affect others, at least a little. Things like attempting to use questionable data to justify higher insurance premiums is just handing them another cudgel to pound us into compliance.

 

[Shadow01]

I think if an employer was having a difficult negotiating next year’s insurance health benefits for unvaccinated employees, I think they have a right to reflect that in their benefits packages. Of course that reality looks quite different from sacking employees for not being vaccinated.

As long as every other communicable disease is used to set rates in the same manner. And employers can and should set treatment standards for employees that have those diseases also. Remember they know what is best for you.

 

[Tombs]

Getting dropped from insurance for a retroactive pre-existing condition.

Is it just me or does this sentence sum of the left's moral corruption precisely?

 

[NewPerson556]

The point being made was its opposite: You cannot force anyone in a free society to do anything.

Existentialism meets pragmatism.

agreed, we dont live in a free society

 

[jamil]

Like I said earlier, if this is to be the standard, then it should be acceptable to charge higher insurance premiums to women of child bearing age, those who are overweight, ethnicities with lower life expectancies, gay people due to promiscuity, trans people for their propensity for chopping stuff off and sewing things on. Covid is not the black death or even smallpox. This risk is overblown, especially for working age people, but this overblown risk is being used as a cudgel to beat the populace into vaccine compliance by threatening your wallet at the least and your livelihood at worst.

It’s already here. They charge higher premiums for tobacco use, for example. They will charge more as it becomes socially acceptable to do so. Policy is downstream from culture, whether the culture derives organically or from propaganda.

 

[jamil]

The effect of better or worse outcomes is limited to the personal choices people made, not those of everyone else. There are many personal decisions that might affect others, at least a little. Things like attempting to use questionable data to justify higher insurance premiums is just handing them another cudgel to pound us into compliance.

I don’t disagree with alot of that. I disagree that better or worse outcomes are only limited to the personal choices.

 

[buckwacker]

I don’t disagree with alot of that. I disagree that better or worse outcomes are only limited to the personal choices.

How does my being vaccinated help you if you contract the rona?

 

[Hatin Since 87]

How does my being vaccinated help you if you contract the rona?

It gives me someone to blame

 

[Noble Sniper]

I keep seeing everything we “HAVE” to do to combat Covid. Why??? In my 51 yrs I’ve never seen mandates and people threatened with their jobs or mask wearing idiocy for the flu!!! Kills just as many people every year. Oh I’m sorry I forgot Covid killed off the flu….. This is just asinine and is nothing more than a test to see how far they can push people. Covid is no more deadly than the flu.

 

[BugI02]

Does not apply to judicial branch
Does not apply to legislative branch

Let me try to remember. I seem to remember there being 3 branches. So, the only one left, is executive branch, which is in my sentence.
As for contractors, well I think that is being debated if it can be done.

The point was, there is indeed an EO mandating that federal contractors maintain a safe working environment for their employees

Those pointing out that it does not specifically point out how to do that are also correct. The government is then encouraging vaccine mandates to satisfy that requirement, and many corporations are interpreting those conditionals to mean they have to

I think FedGov deliberately left what they expect vague so it is difficult to challenge what they wish to do in court based on the text of the EO, and I think contractors are being notable spineless in just rolling over for the push and not requiring the government to spell out its requirements. Those contractors are enabling a much more random and likely harsher regulatory environment by doing so

Edit: My cite is the one applying to contractors. Adjacent to it in the register is the one applying to government employees. It does not apply to judicial and legislative branch because it cannot due to separation of powers

 

[BugI02]

These are the same guys (by rank) who pummeled us with Agent Orange, contaminated water at Camp LeJeune and Burn Pits in the deserts of southwest Asia.

Those people were just doing what they were told to do

If those acts were a problem for you, one would think you would be encouraging them to think for themselves and act accordingly. You act as if these characteristics will somehow only be limited to the vaccine question, I see the benefits of a conscience as being a much more widespread form of immunity to tyranny

 

[BugI02]

I think you missed the connection. You couldn't throw out Roe with that argument.

Sure you can. If you're poor, that doesn't mean you can kill someone else to get the wherewithal to live as you wish even if you try to frame it as a body choice

You also shouldn't be able to kill someone else as a form of retroactive birth control. The decision to protect your body needs to be made upstream before it affects another life - you know, like eschewing promiscuity or at least taking precautions against unwanted pregnancy if you are intent on bumping boots outside of marriage

And I fail to understand why the canard of overturning Roe = the end of abortion is always raised. At the time Roe was decided, 22 states had some form of legal abortion with varying restrictions. I thought we approved of leaving things up to the states over federal one size fits all?

Pre-Roe, an individual intent on an abortion could travel to a different state if her own did not allow it. But no, it had to become a 'right' because a tiny number of individuals lacked the means to procure an abortion. One would think that much as someone who could not afford to move would take a job in another state, one who could not afford to travel to another state for an abortion would abstain or demand precautions. If they're worried the boy might not stay with them if they require condom use, why would they think the boy would stay with them in more difficult circumstances. That scenario should be a hard pass (no pun intended)

 

[Route 45]

I found out yesterday that my religious exemption was denied, as were nearly all others. I know of only one person who was granted one, and in their case their access to the work campus will be revoked. They must work from home 100%. Truly a clown world.

Surprised this hasn't been posted.

SCOTUS: Maine Doesn't Have to Allow Vaccine Mandate Religious Exemptions

Justices Neil Gorsuch, Clarence Thomas and Samuel Alito joined in dissenting from Friday's decision.

www.newsweek.com

 

[JettaKnight]

This is not true. All the vaccines in the US were developed using cell linings that derived from an aborted fetus.

But mainly I wanted to challenge this specious argument that people who are religiously opposed to these vaccines should also be opposed to aspirin because of those products have had research done using the same thing.

Aspirin was synthesized more than 120 years ago. It’s formulation hasn’t been changed by this research. Such research was conducted for purposes unrelated to the formulation of many of these other medications that supposedly should make this as immoral as the other. Production of asparin goes on apart from whether someone takes aspirin and decides they want to research something else. Thinking the something else is the immoral thing would be consistent without having to believe the production of aspirin itself is tainted by that other research.

That list you put together looks almost cut and paste from what I saw on the internet from someone saying the same thing you are. But it doesn’t look like you looked any deeper and took the specious claims as valid claims.

where in my post did I mention aspirin?
What link?
I never mentioned any article or made any references, those were all my own thoughts in that post.

 

[Alpo]

I keep seeing everything we “HAVE” to do to combat Covid. Why??? In my 51 yrs I’ve never seen mandates and people threatened with their jobs or mask wearing idiocy for the flu!!! Kills just as many people every year. Oh I’m sorry I forgot Covid killed off the flu….. This is just asinine and is nothing more than a test to see how far they can push people. Covid is no more deadly than the flu.

At 51, you missed outbreaks of polio, measles, cholera, mumps, Hong Kong flu and Asian flu. You didn't have to "mandate" vaccination back then. Mothers were getting their kids immunized as fast as they could. I heard someone say that other than polio, all those other viruses weren't that big a deal. I beg to differ. I remember that measles had as much as a 30% mortality rate.

Covid didn't kill off the flu. Isolation and better hygeine probably accounted for most of it.

But, the statistics available today tell us that Covid is beginning to burn itself out. Mandatory vaccination is not the answer for a disease that has a fairly low mortality rate for the population as a whole.

 

[Noble Sniper]

As to the low count of the flu….. there was more government money to be made by Covid cases vs the good ole flu. Uncle sugar doesn’t pay anything for flu cases…..

 

[Alpo]

You're quite literally suggesting if an employer pays health benefits, they own the rights to your personhood.

That is slavery on the most basic level.

And another fine example of why people on the right fear universal healthcare. Because people with your view are usually the ones advocating universal healthcare.

Do you smoke?

Do you realize an employer can fire you or not hire you in about 1/2 of the states if you're a smoker?

Do you drink?

An employer can "manage" that issue for you.

Live in a state with "at will" employment? The beancounters might make suggestions after reviewing employer-paid medical costs.

And please don't tell me about your protections under Federal law. It is Federal law that might mandate a vaccination. Right Kimosabe?