I drew my weapon, was it the right thing to do

[Tommy2Tone]

Well...all I can say is do what you think is right and what you can live with. But I encourage you to do some soul searching on that one bud. It scares me for you.

What would you do? We don't carry tazers so we can't use that. My guess is if you are on duty and a person hit you, or tried they would get tazed...but you wouldnt let them get that close would you? of course not you have training you would just taze them. again...we don't carry anything less than leathal...well most of us.

 

[wally05]

If someone still trying to harm me after i had placed my hand on my weapon (1st warning) and he still got closer and closer and i drew my weapon from its holster, not pointed (2nd warning) and he still kept closing in on me i would first be looking for a way out. at this point there probably isn't one because i would have already taken it. So my options are:

a - keep it drawn but not point as he closes in on me
b - point it but don't shoot as he closes in on me
c - warn him again and shot once hes with in striking distance
d - get in a physical fight

If that situation happened, you can assume that the attacker is either a. going for your weapon to kill you or b. going to kill you. If he is willing to keep coming at you after being presented with deadly force, then you can assume that he is going to take it all the way. Ayoob had a few cases similar to that situation and the shooter (GG) won because that is how he explained his life was in danger.

There was a threat that he tried to address civilly and leave the area, but the BG kept coming. The GG drew his weapon and warned him, but the guy kept coming and after 2 or 3 warning and the BG was within grabbing distance, he fired. The defendent explained that by disparity of force (the size of the attacker was bigger than him) and by the fact that he thought the guy was really set on killing him even after he drew his weapon that he thought his life was in danger.

 

[IndyGunworks]

I think a punch in the face would be the beginning of serious bodily harm... if he punched you once why would he stop and leave? I would have had my gun out and accross my chest in the vehicle.... i would give him a chance or start very forcefully yelling back up RIGHT NOW... if he didnt then the gun would be raised and pointed from a retention position.... if he punches me then? bang... period.... i find it hard to belive that i would be criminally liable after feeling the threat, gone to my vehicle for an attmept to flee... issued warnings and was still physically assulted by 1 of the men.... what if the second punch that came would knock me unconsious? then no chance of protecting myself and i very well may never wake up... i understand j706's standpoint, and i will keep his advice in mind... however i think the OP acted properly minus pointing the weapon before he made a chance to find out the intentions... 15 more seconds into the senario and pointed probably would have been justified... but the second i am being physically assulted with clear odds that i cannot get out of the situation without risking serious bodily harm or possibly death... i WILL fire.

 

[concrete dog]

well this has been a very good discussion.like i said before crime is real,and more than likely these three guys where up to no good.anyone that lives close to or in the town i do knows that late at night three mexicans following you to your car from out of the dark is more times than none going to end badly for someone.i see j706 point on the whole legal side,and the pointing of the fire arm,but mine would have been cleared from the holster,maybe not pointed at the guy but also i would not wait for the possible assault to make sure they knew i was armed and not afraid to protect myself if need be.

 

[AndersonIN]

Well...all I can say is do what you think is right and what you can live with. But I encourage you to do some soul searching on that one bud. It scares me for you.

Are you saying that you do not believe the law gives someone the authority to protect themselves with the use of deadly force in this situation or that you think that they would regret it later?

 

[j706]

Joe, I am not smart enough to use this multi quote stuff but glad the kitten is fitting in well. As for your incident I would have done the same. That was a robbery, and a forcible felony when they came over the counter.

Cops on power trips usually have short careers. I have been accused of the same by certain people who didn't like what I said and or did. Sure hope they were wrong.

 

[Jubbie]

This kind of real-life thread is what we need more of, even it'd be nice if we didn't have any of these events happen in the first place. If a chubbs had read a thread about this kind of event before it happened to him, he would have known what to do differently. As it is, he reacted out of instinct instead of trained instinct. Every one of us now have a better understanding of what we might face. j706 did a good thing by expanding the situation even further. This reminds me of a thread about a robbery taking place inside of a Radio Shack a while back. Thanks for sharing chubbs.

 

[j706]

Please don't arrest me, but I considered drawing on the kitten this morning 5:30, and she's sitting on my chest batting at my face trying to get me to rough house She's a cutie pie, and lots of fun!

It IS an interesting conversation, and the incident is more akin to what most folks are liable to face than the cut and dried, black and white issues they get in a lot of training classes. We clearly disagree on whether or not he should have drawn, but it is an important conversation to have. You are clearly intent on doing your job the way you think is right, not on a power trip, so your input is valuable.

You've met me. My considerable insulation aside, I'm not a big guy. Three guys corner me, I CANNOT afford to wait for a punch. A punch, in that situation facing three guys, is the begining of me suffering serious bodily harm, and perhaps death. At least that's a consideration I have to bear in mind, which makes a fear that would make a use of deadly force legal.

I've actually been in a similar situation. I was working midnight shifts part time at a convenience store in Albuquerque. Now, getting robbed was at least a weekly occurrence, pretty much routine, and I knew when it was about to happen. They'd demand the money, or steal some cigs or candy, I'd give it up and wave goodbye, they'd book. This was different, four guys come in giving me "the vibe." Two go to the back of the store and begin stealing hot dogs and stuff. Two come up to the counter and demanded money while filling pockets with cigarettes. I gave them what was in the register. It wasn't enough. They demanded more. Consistent with store policy, I dropped $50 from the time safe (the max I could) and gave it to them. They demanded more, I explained it would be 20 minutes till I could get more, and gave them a bag so they could carry more cigarettes. They start coming over the counter at me, and without even thinking about it my Model 10 was in the "lead" guy's face and I was pulling the trigger. He ran before I finished the pull, along with all his buddies.

Bear in mind: No weapon had been displayed, no physical contact had been made at all. Yet, I was in the act of opening fire, my intent was to shoot anyone that didn't run. None of the cops that responded even thought about arresting me. All they did was laugh at the look on the face of the guy looking down my barrel. It's pretty good odds he peed himself, at least I like to think so. I darn near did.

Anyway, were the cops right? Wrong? Should I have been arrested for what I did in pulling a gun on an unarmed threat that hadn't laid a hand on me?

I think a punch in the face would be the beginning of serious bodily harm... if he punched you once why would he stop and leave? I would have had my gun out and accross my chest in the vehicle.... i would give him a chance or start very forcefully yelling back up RIGHT NOW... if he didnt then the gun would be raised and pointed from a retention position.... if he punches me then? bang... period.... i find it hard to belive that i would be criminally liable after feeling the threat, gone to my vehicle for an attmept to flee... issued warnings and was still physically assulted by 1 of the men.... what if the second punch that came would knock me unconsious? then no chance of protecting myself and i very well may never wake up... i understand j706's standpoint, and i will keep his advice in mind... however i think the OP acted properly minus pointing the weapon before he made a chance to find out the intentions... 15 more seconds into the senario and pointed probably would have been justified... but the second i am being physically assulted with clear odds that i cannot get out of the situation without risking serious bodily harm or possibly death... i WILL fire.

Good points. But I am not,I will not ever shoot someone for punching me. If that was the case there would be three (3) less criminals in this world at my hand.

 

[haldir]

The biggest thing I have had emphasized to me is that the advice not to talk to anyone except your attorney after a shooting is pretty good advice. The LEO is not going to be looking to help me out. He will twist anything said or done to try to put this on me not on the 3 bad guys. This isn't pointed at any one individual just my overall sense from the entire thread.

 

[j706]

Uh Oh-not sure how my post above happened that way. Multi Quote?

 

[AndersonIN]

The biggest thing I have had emphasized to me is that the advice not to talk to anyone except your attorney after a shooting is pretty good advice. The LEO is not going to be looking to help me out. He will twist anything said or done to try to put this on me not on the 3 bad guys. This isn't pointed at any one individual just my overall sense from the entire thread.

911 is on speed dial #1
My lawyer speed dial #9

 

[j706]

I really don't know how to take that comment. Even with a smiley, it's slightly insulting. What department do you work for anyway? I'll be sure not to have someone attack me and have to defend myself in your jurisdiction.

I presume you by your posts that you carry a gun. If were insulted by my post...well maybe you might want to grow some thicker skin my friend. Just so you are clear on what I am attempting to explain to you...If you shoot and kill someone because they hit/punch you, there is a VERY high likely hood that you will be charged with a crime. Not complicated....you cannot legally shoot someone just because they punch you!! There are people sitting in prison right now,in this state, for the same. That is all I am trying to get you to understand. With that mindset you are flirting with disaster.

 

[No Time to Shoot]

Sorry been gone for a few days. Amazed at the negative responses. And yes I work as a LEO. And just because I think something is fact doesn't mean it is.

First off a weapon is not your first line of defense. That is IMO one of the problems with some people who carry and have zero training. I am NOT saying I think there should be mandatory training. But IMO if you chose to carry you should be well versed on the laws. Not looking at the IC code and saying yea that fits my deal the way I want it to. Case law and definitions factors in big time on these matters. We see these mistakes time and time again.

People even rapidly approaching you at night time in a liquor store parking lot and even putting a hand on your door just IMO ain't gonna cut it. The original poster states he actually pointed a weapon at a person who had walked up to him and put his hand on the door. Would he have been justified in having his weapon in his hand while sitting in his vehicle-IMO..Yes. Pointing? No. There are tons of reasons the guy might have done that. I believe you would be hard pressed to prove you were in danger or felt you might have been in danger-Even if you actually was. That burden is on YOU. That burden is often times hard enough even being totally justified.

IMO and it has been my experience that to many permit holders think that because they have a permit they can draw,point and threaten at will for even the most minor of reasons,perceived or real. Just because you can find IC code that you think might fits your justification is dangerous thinking legally.


Example? I don't feel it is proper to go into all the details on a open site so don't ask. I just got another case disposition on a permit holder. He felt the gun was the first and only answer. Now he is a convicted felon by plea agreement. He no longer has a permit. His gun (A very high $$ one )can be bought at the next gun PD sale/auction. He thought he was right. He thought he was doing the right thing. He mentioned IC code that in his mind justified his action. He was mistaken of fact. The worst part? He is a nice guy and I like him. He has a family. He is now broke financially and will be for a long time. He will more than likely now be facing a civil suit. I think he actually thought he was doing the right thing. His case caused me more than a few sleepless (Days for me) nights. I did not do an arrest. I gathered the facts to the best of my ability and I did a case as required and forwarded it to the prosecutors office. The final call is up to them as all criminal matters are.

Just saying-before you draw that weapon and POINT it,you better be damn sure you are doing the right thing. You had better be able to prove that things were like you perceived them to be. Many things are not like they seem and when you start drawing and pointing loaded firearms at people,illegals included,You had better be sure you can back it up with verifiable FACTS. Things had best be like you thought they were. A big problem area for people that have never encountered real threats IMO.

Agree or not is your call. But it does not change the facts. I am in 100% favor of our states carry laws. I am not against people owning,packing or shooting guns. I do so myself and guns are my favorite passion. I have a permit myself and have had one for 20+ years. I do not hassle permit holders. I do not disarm permit holders on traffic stops. I wish more Hoosiers would get permits and carry. I hope those that do will use some common sense. I hope they will not get the cowboy and show off attitude. Common Sense people....Common Sense. The gun is your last resort!

Just my opinion for what it is worth. Take Care All!

Thank you for clearing that up for me at least. I understand where you are coming from now and completely agree with you.

I also apologize for the possible Rusty York comment..

I really enjoy reading all the LEO comments, they help keep us in reality! It's hard to grasp the emotion contained within a faceless post. Are they being informative or are they attacking...just my thought for the day.

 

[2ADMNLOVER]

Probably trying to get into his vehicle just ain't gonna cut it IMO. Would you really shoot a guy because you thought he might be trying to get in your vehicle? Think about it for a second.

One on one I think I stand a decent chance but you never know until you get into it , you could be facing the next Bruce Lee . Then you take what's coming and hope you can live through it .

If I think for one second that I'm about to be on the receiving end of a 3 on 1 beat down or worse , you can take it to the bank that I'm pulling it out .

If that fails to stop it and I think it's about to begin , I'm firing .

 

[wally05]

I presume you by your posts that you carry a gun. If were insulted by my post...well maybe you might want to grow some thicker skin my friend. Just so you are clear on what I am attempting to explain to you...If you shoot and kill someone because they hit/punch you, there is a VERY high likely hood that you will be charged with a crime. Not complicated....you cannot legally shoot someone just because they punch you!! There are people sitting in prison right now,in this state, for the same. That is all I am trying to get you to understand. With that mindset you are flirting with disaster.

Yes, I carry a gun... b/c I'm in LE. NO CRAP YOU CAN'T SHOOT SOMEONE THAT JUST PUNCHES YOU. You have constantly ignored the fact that he was outnumbered 3 to 1. I'm not going to shoot someone that just punches me. The disparity of force is key and the fact that he would be in his vehicle when he was being attacked.

I just get irritated on some boards (especially officer.com, I liked it at first, but everyone there is on a super cop trip) when LEs are telling people that pretty much they shouldn't defend themselves in a situation like this. 3 to 1, person already tried to retreat, even though he didn't have to do it, and IF the subject punches the victim in the face, the fight is on. If a punch happened, it wouldn't just be one punch with the whole situation in mind, most likely the victim would think the others are going to get in on it also. Take into account the whole situation, not just the fact that a guy gets punched in the face.

 

[j706]

One on one I think I stand a decent chance but you never know until you get into it , you could be facing the next Bruce Lee . Then you take what's coming and hope you can live through it .

If I think for one second that I'm about to be on the receiving end of a 3 on 1 beat down or worse , you can take it to the bank that I'm pulling it out .

If that fails to stop it and I think it's about to begin , I'm firing .

Three on one and someone might just got shot. Whole different circumstance.

 

[Fletch]

I presume you by your posts that you carry a gun. If were insulted by my post...well maybe you might want to grow some thicker skin my friend. Just so you are clear on what I am attempting to explain to you...If you shoot and kill someone because they hit/punch you, there is a VERY high likely hood that you will be charged with a crime. Not complicated....you cannot legally shoot someone just because they punch you!! There are people sitting in prison right now,in this state, for the same. That is all I am trying to get you to understand. With that mindset you are flirting with disaster.

And I think that some here would like for you to acknowledge that not all punches are harmless, and situational factors can make them downright deadly. Some people are simply incapable of going toe-to-toe with the average thug (or 3 of them at a time), who statistically is likely to be a male in his physical prime. A lot of what you are saying seems to be in the mode of "just take your beating and wait for the pros to sort it out." There is a point at which deadly force becomes a reasonable, legal response to fisticuffs. It's easier for some of us to meet than others -- my 90-pound mother getting punched by a 200-pound, 20-year-old man is likely going to have to shoot if she wants to survive, while I have a reasonable expectation of resolving the encounter differently. If the law and justice system do not or cannot understand that, they are broken.

 

[Tommy2Tone]

Good points. But I am not,I will not ever shoot someone for punching me. If that was the case there would be three (3) less criminals in this world at my hand.

Did you use a taser? Also i wear glasses and am blind without them. If i loose my glasses in a fight i am a sitting duck and my gun is no use to me because i could not aim it properly and risk hurting other people.

 

[j706]

The biggest thing I have had emphasized to me is that the advice not to talk to anyone except your attorney after a shooting is pretty good advice. The LEO is not going to be looking to help me out. He will twist anything said or done to try to put this on me not on the 3 bad guys. This isn't pointed at any one individual just my overall sense from the entire thread.

My very second call if I were ever to be in a shooting, on duty or off, will be too my two attorneys. Not so sure I agree with your last sentences though. I think if you were right and half way justified, you would whole bunch of cops on your side.

 

[wally05]

My very second call if I were ever to be in a shooting, on duty or off, will be too my two attorneys. Not so sure I agree with your last sentences though. I think if you were right and half way justified, you would whole bunch of cops on your side.

Problem is, there have been many documented stories where some people have talked themselves into trouble. After a shooting, the person may be confused as to what happened. It's normal, and I'm sure you know that through training. It may take 1 to 2 days before everything comes back to memory. Let's not be naive here thinking that every cop responding would agree with what happened. Some could twist it through "Creative report writing" and then it's the responding officer's word and what he wrote down that the shooter said versus the citizen's words right after the incident. Not everyone (including juries) are educated enough on use of force to understand that memories are clouded after that and it takes time to get them back. They'll think "well, he said that happened right after the incident, so he must be lying now." It has happened, and it will happen again. Call your lawyer folks.