I drew my weapon, was it the right thing to do

[kevinj110]

I would have and have done the same as you did. Thanks for sharing your expeience with us and letting us all learn from it.

 

[dwh79]

I would say good call to draw but pointing at them is questionable in my opinion but I wasn't there. I would say to keep you out of trouble if you pull down on someone and feel it was necessary then you should report it to make sure they don't and then the questions start being asked. Although they probably would never go to the police.

 

[MadBomber]

Thanks for sharing the incident with us Chubbs. It's great to see all the comments and I'm sure it gives all of us a little to think about as to how we would react in the same situation. IMO, you did the right thing. I'm not even close to an expert on the law but as one INGO members signature says "you have to survive the situation before you can survive the courts"
Well done and +1 to everyone for their thoughts, opinions, and comments (even the ones we disagree with)

 

[Boilers]

I agree with all of this, but compare and contrast this (anyone, that is) with the Broad Ripple shootings. What is fundamentally different?

(sigh, I cannot quickly find details of the BR situation)

I cut out the rest because he didn't use deadly force, the code that covers what he did is here. But the part I left is relevant because of the code.





He didn't have to be in fear of serious bodily injury or death. All he needed is a reasonable belief that a unlawful use of force was imminent. Which I feel he had, 3 guys approaching quickly from opposite directions in a dark area, I'd feel the same.



Please don't take this the wrong way, I'm not trying to slam you. Just trying to give you something to think about.
While you may not have a duty to retreat, sometimes its the best thing to do. I'm glad we don't have to retreat. But discretion is the better part of valor, he who fights and runs away lives to fight another day and don't go looking for trouble it just might find you and all that jazz. Depending on the circumstances, my home I'm not fleeing, my family on the line, I'll get them to flee if its safe while I stay behind and provide cover but if its safe to do so and it doesn't endanger other innocents I'm probably(again depending on circumstances) going to be out of there.

ETA I almost forgot, in your OP I think you did good, and were legal while doing so but IANAL, TINLA, YMMV etc.

 

[Joe Williams]

This is where I begin to disagree.

I am glad the law says there is no duty to retreat - that's the way the law should be. There are many situations where retreating is not a viable option - such as, I am not going to retreat from my home and abandon my kids tto the mercy of home invaders.

However, there are many situations where I do believe that retreating is the most sensible option. If I am presented with such a situation, I am not too proud or too macho to avoid a confrontation if possible. In OPs situation, if I can avoid getting into a shoot out by stepping back into the store, without having to abandon my kid or desert some other pressing obligation, then I'm going to do it.

Even in a completely justified self defense shooting, I am likely to have post incident stress reactions, a real possibility of expensive legal troubles, and who knows if one of the three guys might also have a gun and I get shot too.

For these reasons, I'm not going to get in to a shootout if I can avoid it.

I'm glad the "no duty to retreat" law is in place, but I still will consider whether retreat may be my best option in some confrontations.

This is an outstanding post!

True, the law may not impose a duty to retreat on us, nor should it. But our obligations to our family may, in fact, impose it. If we can avoid a confrontation, that's what we need to do. In the case of the OP, I don't see much choice. Techres' idea of going back into the store may be a good one, but in a fast developing situation, trying to get to the car and run may be the best bet, especially with your momentum already carrying you that way.

 

[Timjoebillybob]

As i said in my post i think that going into the store may have been the best option, but it wasn't the first thing to cross my mind. This is something that WILL cross my mind now, thanks to chubbs.

I didn't say you did the wrong thing, what you did may possibly be the best thing you could of done, depending on how far you were from the store/car, where they were etc. If they had bad intentions towards you and you went to retreat into the store they might of decided to bum rush you before you got in, by you going towards your car and away from "help" might of made them over confident and easier to deal with. From the sound of it you had very little time to make a decision, you made one and acted on it, better than standing there trying to weigh every possible action. You acted and no one was injured. Except maybe the one guys pride from having to clean his underwear. Its just how you phrased the post I responded too, made it seem that you wouldn't consider retreating period.
I'll say it again IMHO you did good.

 

[tharlow514]

I drew a gun on a would be robber at lafayette square mall. You can draw a gun and not shoot so many say if my gun is coming out it is shooting but I didn't and the problem ended peacefully. Like I said earlier better to be judged by 12 than carried by 6.

I agree. If you can end the confrontation peacefully then ultimately that is the best outcome. Statistics show that most self defense encounters end without a shot fired. I guess this would be a good example. I would have probably drawn as well. I don't know how anyone that is self aware would not think that this is a potential threat.

 

[cklein6576]

I didnt read all 11 pages, but...LEARN THE FREAKING LANGUAGE! Who knows maybe they needed a jump start but mumbling in spanish isn't going to help anyone. My gf's parents are not natural citizens but I can have a conversation with them as they took the time to learn the language of their new home.

 

[Sasquatchhunter]

Your a pretty big guy Chubbs, they must have been pretty desperate to mess with you man.

 

[ezdubbin97]

I think you did the right thing...I would not have turned back to go into the store, it would have put them in front of you and the change of direction would give them the opportunity to circle you quickly escalating the situation. Good job that everyone left unharmed...

 

[tatters]

I think the OP did the right thing. I've never been in that position but I would think I would do the same thing. Hard to say.

You're safe, that's the optimal outcome.

 

[j706]

Sorry been gone for a few days. Amazed at the negative responses. And yes I work as a LEO. And just because I think something is fact doesn't mean it is.

First off a weapon is not your first line of defense. That is IMO one of the problems with some people who carry and have zero training. I am NOT saying I think there should be mandatory training. But IMO if you chose to carry you should be well versed on the laws. Not looking at the IC code and saying yea that fits my deal the way I want it to. Case law and definitions factors in big time on these matters. We see these mistakes time and time again.

People even rapidly approaching you at night time in a liquor store parking lot and even putting a hand on your door just IMO ain't gonna cut it. The original poster states he actually pointed a weapon at a person who had walked up to him and put his hand on the door. Would he have been justified in having his weapon in his hand while sitting in his vehicle-IMO..Yes. Pointing? No. There are tons of reasons the guy might have done that. I believe you would be hard pressed to prove you were in danger or felt you might have been in danger-Even if you actually was. That burden is on YOU. That burden is often times hard enough even being totally justified.

IMO and it has been my experience that to many permit holders think that because they have a permit they can draw,point and threaten at will for even the most minor of reasons,perceived or real. Just because you can find IC code that you think might fits your justification is dangerous thinking legally.


Example? I don't feel it is proper to go into all the details on a open site so don't ask. I just got another case disposition on a permit holder. He felt the gun was the first and only answer. Now he is a convicted felon by plea agreement. He no longer has a permit. His gun (A very high $$ one )can be bought at the next gun PD sale/auction. He thought he was right. He thought he was doing the right thing. He mentioned IC code that in his mind justified his action. He was mistaken of fact. The worst part? He is a nice guy and I like him. He has a family. He is now broke financially and will be for a long time. He will more than likely now be facing a civil suit. I think he actually thought he was doing the right thing. His case caused me more than a few sleepless (Days for me) nights. I did not do an arrest. I gathered the facts to the best of my ability and I did a case as required and forwarded it to the prosecutors office. The final call is up to them as all criminal matters are.

Just saying-before you draw that weapon and POINT it,you better be damn sure you are doing the right thing. You had better be able to prove that things were like you perceived them to be. Many things are not like they seem and when you start drawing and pointing loaded firearms at people,illegals included,You had better be sure you can back it up with verifiable FACTS. Things had best be like you thought they were. A big problem area for people that have never encountered real threats IMO.

Agree or not is your call. But it does not change the facts. I am in 100% favor of our states carry laws. I am not against people owning,packing or shooting guns. I do so myself and guns are my favorite passion. I have a permit myself and have had one for 20+ years. I do not hassle permit holders. I do not disarm permit holders on traffic stops. I wish more Hoosiers would get permits and carry. I hope those that do will use some common sense. I hope they will not get the cowboy and show off attitude. Common Sense people....Common Sense. The gun is your last resort!

Just my opinion for what it is worth. Take Care All!

 

[Wabatuckian]

Ok, in short, I think the OP did alright. Not great, but alright.

If he could have gotten back into the store, he should have.

If he could have locked the doors an used his cell phone to dial 911 as he was starting the car and backing out, he should have.

The gun is the last resort. I have found that when I need it, it's out already and ready to fire. Daily practice tends to lend that ability to make decisions subconsciously, I guess.

Probably would have done things in this order, myself:

1) Scan the parking lot from inside (if windows are present).

2) Stop with back to the door and scan again.

3) If anything is suspicious, go back inside and make a call.

4) If nothing is suspicious, continue.

5) If approached, only let them get as close as you're comfortable with, and never invade your personal space. Watch their body language.

6) "No" means "no" in both languages. Easier than trying to say "stop" in Spanish or whatnot when you're under stress.

7) If they kept approaching, I'd attempt to get to my car, start it, leave the immediate area, and dial 911. If I were being detained by someone standing there, well, 3000lbs of Detroit rolling iron isn't going to leave much of a chance for a 175lb flesh-and-blood critter. And you don't even have to hit them hard - most people will move for a vehicle idling out of the parking lot at 5mph.

8) They try to enter the vehicle, the gun is drawn and the person entering is shot. Things will be happening very quickly at this point and there will be no time for second guessing. Either you will act or you will freeze. Expect auditory exclusion, tunnel vision, and loss of fine motor function. You will not be able to hear "I surrender." This is where target identification and shoot/don't shoot is very important.

If you have to use your gun, you have failed in some way. In my cases, it has been due to lack of situational awareness.

A person can only stay on extreme alert for five minutes, high alert for 15, and then it goes downhill from there.

Using an example from myself: The neighbor's dog charged me when I was getting firewood. I had heard, but failed to note, a jingle of a chain. It just didn't register.

When the dog charged, I saw the chain, got out of range, and didn't have to fire.

That's the difference between complacency and high alert status.

Now, if I saw someone demonstrating furtive behavior, you better believe I'd be back inside. I'm a big chicken, you see - and I'll admit it. There's never anything brave in shooting a person (saving another or in time of war, excluded of course).

Now, since I'm a big chicken, I wouldn't be at a strange liquor store in a seedy part of town at night in the first place.

Just my thoughts on the matter. I wasn't there and so I cannot pass judgment.

Josh <><

 

[Tommy2Tone]

J706, i am glad you posted because i enjoyed your post. I think it adds another aspect to this learning experience and this is really what this whole thing is. I agree with the gun is your last resort, as it should be. I think your drawn but not pointed would have probably been the best thing to do in terms of legality, but when its happening in less then a few seconds and you have to act NOW i think Chubbs did okay. Hes still alive, the 3 other individuals are still alive, no one got hurt. finally thank you for your service.

 

[clt46910]

j706, why do you have a carry permit for over twenty years when you are LEO? Most I know do not need one because they are LEO.

 

[bigus_D]

+1 for j706... an excellent response amid a burrage of criticism.

From reading the Indiana Code and responses on this site, I understood that it would be against the law to point a gun at somebody unless you would be lawful in shooting that person.

From the description of the incident, I don't think a shooting would have been found lawful. Therefore, I don't think it was lawful to point the weapon at him.

I'm not trying to say that you MUST shoot if you draw, just that you shouldn't draw (pointing) unless shooting is a real possibility (or, that is at least my opperating understanding of the law).

IANAL, I wasn't there, etc etc... I'm glad the situation turned out the way it did... but I agree it is dangerous to assume you can draw and point your weapon any time you feel the hairs on the back of your neck stand up.

 

[CountryBoy19]

j706,
I'm not here to criticize your opinion. And I'm definitely not trying to make this a cop bashing post. But consider when a cop draws his weapon and points it at, or near a suspect because there may be a chance that his life is going to be threatened. He is only preparing for a situation that he thinks may escalate, even though he is not yet in fear of bodily harm.

Now flip that back to the OPs situation. I think he was only doing the same. And in that situation, inside a vehicle, with the steering wheel etc in the way, its very tough to "draw down" and have the gun away from the person, yet still be prepared that possibly escalation. With somebody that close things can happen in the blink of an eye. I still hold the opinion that in order to be the best prepared for that, with the person as close as he was, the best way was to point the gun in the person direction.

If it would've been me, it would've been pointed in the person's direction but it'd be held below the window (pointing through the door). This way it isn't perceived so much as a threat, but as a warning, yet it is easily deployable.

+1 Thanks for coming back and posting more amid all the criticism.

 

[j706]

j706, why do you have a carry permit for over twenty years when you are LEO? Most I know do not need one because they are LEO.

You never know if you might get suspended,fired ect. I have just always had one since I left the military. I haven't always been in law enforcement. Getting ready to renew and get my lifetime this month, if I can scrape up the extra cash.

 

[j706]

j706,
I'm not here to criticize your opinion. And I'm definitely not trying to make this a cop bashing post. But consider when a cop draws his weapon and points it at, or near a suspect because there may be a chance that his life is going to be threatened. He is only preparing for a situation that he thinks may escalate, even though he is not yet in fear of bodily harm.

Now flip that back to the OPs situation. I think he was only doing the same. And in that situation, inside a vehicle, with the steering wheel etc in the way, its very tough to "draw down" and have the gun away from the person, yet still be prepared that possibly escalation. With somebody that close things can happen in the blink of an eye. I still hold the opinion that in order to be the best prepared for that, with the person as close as he was, the best way was to point the gun in the person direction.

If it would've been me, it would've been pointed in the person's direction but it'd be held below the window (pointing through the door). This way it isn't perceived so much as a threat, but as a warning, yet it is easily deployable.

+1 Thanks for coming back and posting more amid all the criticism.

Not sure how to mutli post or what ever it is called,but in your first paragraph keep in mind as a LEO things are kind of the same but yet different. Not that we are special or any thing silly like that but we are tasked with going into situations that can be lethal. Not sure I can explain it. Best way I can think of it as more of offensive than defensive. Probably not a good explanation-been up all night and a little weary. Let me think on that one.

 

[Joe Williams]

J706, someone has asked already, and I thought it was a good question.
What would a cop have done in this situation. Trapped by what may or may not be three bad guys. Can't leave, can't get back in the store, surrounded, can't call for backup, can't ID yourself as a cop.... what do you do? What till the attack is underway? Drive over 'em? Cops have all kinds of training for dealing with 3 guys coming out of cover and converging on you at high speed from different directions, and I think it would be very useful for us civilians to get the benefit of such knowledge.