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Downtown Indy Riots/damage overnight...
- Thread starter billybob44
- Start date
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I watched the "protests" in Lake County a couple of weekends ago. Had there not been a phalanx of police at every piece of glass in the mall and surrounding area there would have been mass looting. The agents provocateur were out in force. Lake County mobilized hundreds of police from a dozen departments and State police. Why were the protesters meeting specifically at the mall, Meijer, Home Depot and other Highway 30 businesses?
You cannot separate the good from the bad when the bad are given cover by the "good".
Like when when one of the robbers is killed and his accomplices are charged with murder.
You’ve suggested this several times now. Sounds like you have been sitting down and shutting up. What specific remedies are they seeking? Down here in my locale, it’s all white people doing the yelling, demanding, and shouting down—not much shutting up.
I’m all for fixing whatever issues are in place that allow a police officer to execute a suspect on the spot. I’m all for fixing stop and frisk, asset seiszures, pulling people over for minor equipment violations as a ruse to search for drugs, etc. I might be in favor of any number of other remedies as well. But from my vantage point, I’m not hearing them. All I’m hearing is I’m a racist.
Just to keep this at the forefront - I'm not speaking on behalf of anyone by myself.
In my conversations on these topics - recently, but also over the last several years - right now, it isn't really about remedies, it is about recognizing problems continue to exist.
In my conversations, when they do turn to "what is to be done"
there is a lack of consensus and substance. I would say, incremental improvements to use of force policies would be important. (Those are very difficult to get right at the policy level, then require training and more training to put into practice, and can't account for all the permutations of human interactions.) Training on implicit bias, particularly in areas where that might be important, where there is a significant proportion of black-on-black crime.For me, the bigger issues are socio-economic and involve access to opportunities. Those are also the areas that government can't actually move the needle much, other than create an environment in which people can put their capital to good use and make a profit. But there are sub-cultural issues involving lack of trust and... lack of hope, I guess.
In this moment, for the genuine protesters, my sense is that it is more about being heard and having a proper seat at the table. Some of us may think that seat has always been available, but that has not really been the perception from those on the "other" side of the table.
Again, I'm just speaking based on my own experience and limited insight. No one should particularly believe me - go find out for yourself.
A seat at the table.....
Having grown up in the 1950's and 1960's, I'm very aware of the level of discrimination that existed at the time. We've made tremendous progress in improving "access" to the potential that is the American Dream. Having a black president in 2008 - 2016 shows that anything is achievable, but as with movie stardom, professional sports and tv, it is a rare occurrence, race notwithstanding.
We certainly need police reforms, and Terry stops should be on the list along with the other items mentioned in these pages. We aren't getting leadership on the response from the Feds, and the locals are bending over and supplying their own K-Y. Where is the leadership response?
,
Having grown up in the 1950's and 1960's, I'm very aware of the level of discrimination that existed at the time. We've made tremendous progress in improving "access" to the potential that is the American Dream. Having a black president in 2008 - 2016 shows that anything is achievable, but as with movie stardom, professional sports and tv, it is a rare occurrence, race notwithstanding.
We certainly need police reforms, and Terry stops should be on the list along with the other items mentioned in these pages. We aren't getting leadership on the response from the Feds, and the locals are bending over and supplying their own K-Y. Where is the leadership response?
,
We no longer have leaders just puppets with KY dispensers attached in a convenient location.
Well, the good news is we have hand sanitizer dispensers all over the place as a result of Covid-19. Shouldn't be too hard to reformulate for lube.
The persistence of culture... it used to change oh so very slowly.
Now it's speeding up and the planet more and more shares a culture. After satellite TV went global grandparents in New Delhi found their grandchildren had more in common with kids in New York than with them. There are differences yet to be sure but the great homogenization is well underway. Look at how much things have changed in just the last few decades; it's mind boggling! Now police are not "civilians" anymore, they're militarized and we have over 150,000 police processed through Israeli training to teach them how to treat Americans like Palestinians and presto; changes seemingly in the blink of an eye. What a change from being leaned over the hood of the cruiser and getting belt leather on your behind for staying out too late. Makes me think about a sheriff in Kansas saying they didn't really have much of any problems with juvenile crime until (culture shift) satellite TV came to town.
So now, yeah, I think this is really all about differences in culture. Not between left and right, but between right and wrong.
Now it's speeding up and the planet more and more shares a culture. After satellite TV went global grandparents in New Delhi found their grandchildren had more in common with kids in New York than with them. There are differences yet to be sure but the great homogenization is well underway. Look at how much things have changed in just the last few decades; it's mind boggling! Now police are not "civilians" anymore, they're militarized and we have over 150,000 police processed through Israeli training to teach them how to treat Americans like Palestinians and presto; changes seemingly in the blink of an eye. What a change from being leaned over the hood of the cruiser and getting belt leather on your behind for staying out too late. Makes me think about a sheriff in Kansas saying they didn't really have much of any problems with juvenile crime until (culture shift) satellite TV came to town.
So now, yeah, I think this is really all about differences in culture. Not between left and right, but between right and wrong.
You betcha.
Just to keep this at the forefront - I'm not speaking on behalf of anyone by myself.
In my conversations on these topics - recently, but also over the last several years - right now, it isn't really about remedies, it is about recognizing problems continue to exist.
In my conversations, when they do turn to "what is to be done"
For me, the bigger issues are socio-economic and involve access to opportunities. Those are also the areas that government can't actually move the needle much, other than create an environment in which people can put their capital to good use and make a profit. But there are sub-cultural issues involving lack of trust and... lack of hope, I guess.
In this moment, for the genuine protesters, my sense is that it is more about being heard and having a proper seat at the table. Some of us may think that seat has always been available, but that has not really been the perception from those on the "other" side of the table.
Again, I'm just speaking based on my own experience and limited insight. No one should particularly believe me - go find out for yourself.
I can’t help then. If and when they give an actionable list and not just another “we need a seat at the table”, we can probably find some common ground. I’m not good at this sort of *****ing and moaning.
I think they would be enlightened at how much they would be heard if they would address the 800 lb. gorilla in the room - cleaning up their own crime-ridden communities and the atrocious rate at which young black men are killing each other. Until that happens, their message is going to continue to fall on some deaf ears. Not all, but enough so that real change is going to continue to be difficult. Imagine how much more receptive the public at large would be if Chicago's crime rate dropped precipitously. That would indicate a willingness to address the problems on their side of the table.
If you're complaining about being unfairly treated as criminals, then it might behoove you to root out the criminals that are contributing to that perception. By continuing to ignore it, it's a little hard to take someone seriously.
I don't think T.Lex has even been to Sweden.
T.Lex is doing a fine job, so I'm sitting out for the moment.
I don't think T.Lex has even been to Sweden.
T.Lex is doing a fine job, so I'm sitting out for the moment.
I notice that you and he never post simultaneously (in the non-Einsteinian sense)
Okay, let me see if I can make your own case for you. Let's say I'm an employer at a warehouse, and I need two part time people to unload trucks and stock shelves. There are two applicants, one white, one black. I call them both in for interviews. I talk to them both. They're both fit and strong enough to do the job. Both equally qualified. The black kid is wearing saggy jeans and a tee shirt. The white kid is wearing jeans "correctly" and a tee shirt. I tell them they can both start right away if they'd like, but I say to the black kid, you'll have to pull your jeans up if you want to work here. He gets offended and tells me he can't pull them up, they're made that way, and he wears them like that all the time. It's never been a problem. I tell him that if he's gonna work for me then, he needs to go home and change his clothes before I can let him work. That angers him and he just leaves.
His lived experience is of a white guy letting the white kid work because the white kid wears his clothes the way the the employer does. It's not fair. Why is the white kid's style deemed "proper" and the black kid's style not? It's true enough that I'm not likely to think well of wearing one's jeans below one's ass. That's my acculturated experience. And it's the white kid's too. So then the outcome is that because of the differences in acculturated norms, the black kid doesn't have a job. So that's a fair point. And I have no problem with calling that acculturated racism.
However. There are two sides to it. Perception feels a lot like reality. The black kid's lived experience felt pretty real to him. My lived experience felt pretty real to me. Which one is real? Was anyone oppressed? There's the rub. The black kid feels oppressed because he can't wear his jeans the way he always does. He has to wear them the same way the white kid does. It's frustrating and it's not fair. Both of us have our own points of view, but we don't have the full perspective.
What if the reason I could not let him work is that there's a PPE requirement for that job? So maybe it's some kind of safety harness that needs to be worn to load packages on shelves. Something like that. And the PPE can't be made to work with pants worn that low. So that's my perspective, which is not part of his. There's really no acculturated racism going on in the full perspective of reality. But to get both people understanding the full perspective we need something like a dialectic to bring those into a fuller understanding of reality.
And that brings me to why it's absurd to tell people to sit down and shut up. It's fine to give fair time to share their part of the perspective, but what has to happen after that, if there is to be any reconciliation at all, is a dialog, maybe a back and forth, to be sure each of us understands the other perspective.
In the case of BLM, it's fairly certain that's a bad cop. He has a record of doing these kinds of things. Many cops say that was uncalled for and against most agency policies. And though it's reasonable to suspect that the bad cop did this because the subject was black, it's unproven. And it's certainly not proven that it's an example of "institutional racism". Our situation today is that people are rioting in the streets BECAUSE only the one side gets to talk, and only one perspective gets to be seen as valid. The fullest truth available is encompassed in the reconciliation of both perspectives. I think if both sides could reach a fuller perception of reality, one that includes both no one would have an excuse to riot. Protest maybe. Riot, no. But the riots really are not about Floyd anyway, are they.
Generally speaking, for any of us, our troubles are usually the results of our own choices and decisions. (Standard disclaimer: Certainly not always but often times they are). But in this case, it will considered racist to even broach that discussion.
This seems to be the de facto way of dismissing these concerns.
You speak of those criminals in those neighborhoods... fine. But I ask, what about the black family leaving up north in the suburbs? That's not their neighborhood any more than it's mine or yours (that's another discussion). Yet, it's that family that has to sit their teenage son down and have "the talk".
And if you want the take the moral high ground and say you don't see color, then you can't simultaneously criticize "them" and "their culture of crime". You can't claim to be free of prejudice in one post, then in other state that, it's fault for these problems.
I removed the quote's author because I'm not singling out any one person. There's so, so many with this view.
And yeah, I guess I'm at least dipping my toe into these waters.
That's pretty much a prejudicial statement. You've lumped everyone together; classic out-group bias. Don't you want to judge people on their on motives, intentions and actions?
We had some destruction the first night or two in Fort Wayne, but since them, it's been nothing but peaceful protesting.
You know the right to peacefully assemble goes for all points of view, right?
And until that changes, no solution will work.
