Beer Virus V

[jamil]

What's the legal standard for that? And how does it compare to me being responsible if one of my employees or clients is infected at my business? I can argue it the same way I would argue my personal decision for a vaccine: there is more risk in not getting vaccinated (unless of course the data changes).

Not being a lawyer, I suspect my actual responsibility is to be sure they are informed. Vaccine requirements aren't uncommon in business and school.

The safety of the vaccine remains to be seen. “Fast tracking” isn’t confidence inspiring.

 

[dusty88]

The safety of the vaccine remains to be seen. “Fast tracking” isn’t confidence inspiring.

I'm usually pretty skeptical of new medical technology, and will only use it if there aren't alternatives. This vaccine went through the same protocols that others have; it was faster for a few reasons. The vaccine technology isn't new so it was "ready" to add the spike protein of the virus.

The other difference is the vaccines were produced during trials rather than waiting. That was a financial risk, but not a medical risk.

There are only so many known potential side effects of vaccines. One is antibody enhancement and that doesn't appear to be taking place with this. And we'll have even more evidence after healthcare workers are vaccinated.

In any case, you have to measure what is known vs what is unknown. The vaccine so far has no serious side effects.

Covid has a whole list of serious side effects including death, brain damage, myocarditis, strokes, limb amputation... etc.

 

[nonobaddog]

There are only so many known potential side effects of vaccines.

But there are so many unknown potential side effects of vaccines. But hey, it might fix the over-population problem.

 

[dusty88]

But there are so many unknown potential side effects of vaccines. But hey, it might fix the over-population problem.

What are the unknown potential side effects of a virus that has existed for about 1 year?

 

[JCSR]

Covid has a whole list of serious side effects including limb amputation... etc.

COVID will not make your limbs fall off. Once again the facts are clouded.....[h=1]COVID Could Cost Life and Limb -- Literally[/h][h=2]— Is this really the right time to be cutting specialists' Medicare reimbursement?[/h]


Amid the escalating volume of patients with COVID-19 in hospitals, doctors recently noticed something puzzling: the typical volume of patients with symptoms of heart attack, stroke, appendicitis, and other emergent or urgent health problems were no longer seeking care as frequently. As much as we wish that Americans are no longer suffering from these serious conditions, the reality is that these "missing" patients likely did not seek or have adequate access to care.
It's an interesting (and somewhat frightening) byproduct of the coronavirus pandemic. Although health officials have been successful in keeping hospital inpatient beds and emergency departments open for surges of COVID-19 patients, some Americans who desperately need care are delaying it -- or going without it altogether.
This situation is distressing, particularly for the estimated 20 million Americans suffering from limb-threatening conditions, such as peripheral artery disease, that require prompt intervention to prevent lower limb amputation. But the COVID-19 emergency, paired with looming Medicare cuts approved late last year, has created a uniquely troubling situation for Americans who need revascularization procedures -- and the providers who care for them.
https://www.medpagetoday.com/practicemanagement/reimbursement/86599

 

[BigRed]

Ivy League Study Shows How US Media Created a Climate of Fear Over COVID-19

A good read, and a good video.

Thanks for sharing it.

 

[BigRed]

What are the unknown potential side effects of a virus that has existed for about 1 year?

An overly aggressive state for one.

 

[T.Lex]

I'm usually pretty skeptical of new medical technology, and will only use it if there aren't alternatives. This vaccine went through the same protocols that others have; it was faster for a few reasons. The vaccine technology isn't new so it was "ready" to add the spike protein of the virus.

The other difference is the vaccines were produced during trials rather than waiting. That was a financial risk, but not a medical risk.

There are only so many known potential side effects of vaccines. One is antibody enhancement and that doesn't appear to be taking place with this. And we'll have even more evidence after healthcare workers are vaccinated.

In any case, you have to measure what is known vs what is unknown. The vaccine so far has no serious side effects.

I think a caveat belongs in there with respect to the Pfizer vaccine that uses a new mRNA technique. As I understand it, this will be the first CDC-approved mRNA-based vaccine.

So, layer onto all the other unknowns, the additional mystery of potential downside risk of not just the new mRNA vaccine, but the mass production of a new mRNA technique... well... that creates some compelling downside risk for me personally.

But I'm more of a trailing edge technology guy. I was burned early with a couple early-adopter choices. I'm more than happy to be at the back of the line for these vaccines. Let all of the front line workers, at-risk patients, et al, go first.

No, no, don't call me a hero.

 

[JettaKnight]

What are the unknown potential side effects of a virus that has existed for about 1 year?

As a beer judge, the thought of having my sniffer quit is terrifying.

 

[dusty88]

I think a caveat belongs in there with respect to the Pfizer vaccine that uses a new mRNA technique. As I understand it, this will be the first CDC-approved mRNA-based vaccine.

So, layer onto all the other unknowns, the additional mystery of potential downside risk of not just the new mRNA vaccine, but the mass production of a new mRNA technique... well... that creates some compelling downside risk for me personally.

But I'm more of a trailing edge technology guy. I was burned early with a couple early-adopter choices. I'm more than happy to be at the back of the line for these vaccines. Let all of the front line workers, at-risk patients, et al, go first.

No, no, don't call me a hero.

In the broadest sense, I agree with being skeptical of what is new and unknown, especially in medicine. As you implied, though, most of us won't have the choice of rushing for the vaccine anyway.

mRNA vaccines have been studied for 30 years. Probably the biggest concern is we don't know about their durability. It's very possible that whatever first round of Covid vaccines we get, will have to be followed up with a better one in a year or so.

It's nonetheless amazing that we may have 90%+ efficacy of the first round of vaccines.

 

[T.Lex]

In the broadest sense, I agree with being skeptical of what is new and unknown, especially in medicine. As you implied, though, most of us won't have the choice of rushing for the vaccine anyway.

mRNA vaccines have been studied for 30 years. Probably the biggest concern is we don't know about their durability. It's very possible that whatever first round of Covid vaccines we get, will have to be followed up with a better one in a year or so.

It's nonetheless amazing that we may have 90%+ efficacy of the first round of vaccines.

haha

Well, I take that skeptically, too.

But, "studied" isn't the same as "mass produced." And please - I'm certainly open to correction on this! Some mRNA treatments have been approved for cancer, right? But no vaccines.

 

[foszoe]

Ivy League Study Shows How US Media Created a Climate of Fear Over COVID-19

I don't trust that liberal bastion of higher education

 

[Alpo]

I'm just gonna wait to see how Doc Hoosier fares.

I'm hoping this vaccine will prevent Covid infection and eliminate male pattern baldness.

 

[dusty88]

haha

Well, I take that skeptically, too.

But, "studied" isn't the same as "mass produced." And please - I'm certainly open to correction on this! Some mRNA treatments have been approved for cancer, right? But no vaccines.

Right. My personal view is that I don't have the luxury of waiting 5 years, unless I continue the "luxury" of avoiding large gatherings, isolating myself for 10 days before I visit family, canceling my international travel etc.

so I'll suck it up and use "what is known" for my analysis and deal with the unknown as it comes

"what is known" about Covid so far tells me that I'd much rather stick my arm out for a vaccine.

 

[T.Lex]

Right. My personal view is that I don't have the luxury of waiting 5 years, unless I continue the "luxury" of avoiding large gatherings, isolating myself for 10 days before I visit family, canceling my international travel etc.

so I'll suck it up and use "what is known" for my analysis and deal with the unknown as it comes

"what is known" about Covid so far tells me that I'd much rather stick my arm out for a vaccine.

And God bless you for it!

(No, seriously, I hope it works exceedingly well not just for you but for everyone.)

 

[HoughMade]

Well, we have to expect that there will be some adverse reactions out of hundreds of millions of doses. It simply will happen. Some who may react badly can be , to some extent, predicted (autoimmune or other inflammatory comorbidities) and maybe for them, forego the vaccine.

As for the average person, well, heck, I could get killed driving home on the Borman Expressway tonight. Everything carries risk.

I volunteered for vaccine studies twice, but was not chosen- no testing, no information. I find it ironic that I was rejected because of type II diabetes even though it is well controlled in the extreme. I mean...who do they keep telling us is at risk from COVID? Wouldn't we want some information about how the vaccine affects these people?

 

[dusty88]

Well, we have to expect that there will be some adverse reactions out of hundreds of millions of doses. It simply will happen. Some who may react badly can be , to some extent, predicted (autoimmune or other inflammatory comorbidities) and maybe for them, forego the vaccine.

As for the average person, well, heck, I could get killed driving home on the Borman Expressway tonight. Everything carries risk.

I volunteered for vaccine studies twice, but was not chosen- no testing, no information. I find it ironic that I was rejected because of type II diabetes even though it is well controlled in the extreme. I mean...who do they keep telling us is at risk from COVID? Wouldn't we want some information about how the vaccine affects these people?

Interesting. I understood that was one of the things that was 'sped up' was adding groups with comorbidities. That's usually a later stage of a trial. I didn't follow every detail though.

 

[jamil]

They know very well that there is no precedent for this. Further, especially with the SCOTUS we have now, it is unlikely that it will be found that there is authority under the Constitution for the federal government to make such a mandate.



"Pushing" it on the states? Ever since there have been mandatory vaccinations (over 100 years) it has been under state law. Clearly, this is constitutional, at least with proven vaccines. As for entering federal spaces- that would satisfy the jurisdictional "hook" for federal authority, but good luck enforcing it outside of federal courthouses. ...and "show me your papers"? We ask for papers in many contexts. I don't think that makes anyone a Nazi.



Without getting into political opinions, I don't think either are necessary at this time or any time soon.

Vaccinations will be of limited supply for some time, so why not simply allow those who want it to get it and then see where natural resistance (getting it and recovering) as well as vaccinations get us in terms of reduced transmission rates and all that goes with that. In the end, I don't think that the "50% won't get it" number will hold, and even if it does for a while, there will not be enough supply to get 50% of people vaccinated for some time.

Mandated for 100 years? Which state requires its citizens to be vaccinated? Now, in most states school age children are required to be vaccinated against a schedule of childhood infectious diseases before they can be enrolled in schools. But that’s not exactly the same as saying that states have required their entire population to be vaccinated.

 

[HoughMade]

Mandated for 100 years? Which state requires its citizens to be vaccinated? Now, in most states school age children are required to be vaccinated against a schedule of childhood infectious diseases before they can be enrolled in schools. But that’s not exactly the same as saying that states have required their entire population to be vaccinated.

The Supreme Court ruled that states can mandate vaccination over 100 years ago.

 

[nonobaddog]

What are the unknown potential side effects of a virus that has existed for about 1 year?

Since they are unknown - I don't know them.