Afghanistan

[Leadeye]

Rome's military solution for Carthage would work, but we haven't got the stomach for it

I would heed Niccolo's advice concerning if authority cannot be both loved and feared

Correct, and we could solve the drug problem by crucifying drug dealers along the interstate, but I don't think we'll do that either. Rome was a tough state in a tough world.

 

[Expat]

Truman knew how to end a war.

 

[Leadeye]

I have a slightly similar story. When I was in the Marine Corps I had a Staff Sergent telling us about the time he was assigned to a Middle Eastern country. He was part of the forces that was training their pilots. Every time they went over things in class (his example was how to land), all they would say is, "Yes, yes. I understand. No problem. I can do it." Then they would crash. He put it down to some sort of bull headed machismo that wouldn't allow them to look stupid or inferior.

Understand that he was part of a unit trying to teach FLYING, something most people in the world cannot do. Yet for all our efforts the vast majority of the folks he was assigned to try to train just wouldn't want to listen.

Of course, the FLIP SIDE also seems to be true! WE don't seem to want to learn from them, learn how they fight, what motivates them to fight, and then give them the tools to fight both of our enemies THEIR way - not ours. Bullheadedness seems rampant on both sides...?

Regards,

Doug

I had the same problem training maquila mexicans how to handle chemicals, we used to refer to it as Mexican Fundamentalism.

 

[rhamersley]

Taliban got a Blackhawk in the air. And some people think the CIA isn’t or didn’t train them...... smh

Were they able to land, though…

 

[Mikey1911]

Truman knew how to end a war.

True-but it’s always been Tibbets and LeMay who have been vilified for having mounted the actual missions. Byrnes, Marshall, Stimson, and Truman have always seemed to escape the left’s opprobrium.

LeMay apparently didn’t see a military requirement for the Bomb - he had told the JCS that by the end of October 1945 he would be out of conventional targets for the B-29s, except for Kyoto and the four cities designated by Groves as targets.

 

[BehindBlueI's]

Were they able to land, though…

If you watch it, it was pretty much always "landed". I'm not sure it ever left the tarmac, it looks like he just drove it around on with the wheels in contact with the ground the entire time.

 

[Sylvain]

Propaganda value aside, meh. Contractors likely trained them and not as Taliban but as Afghani military who then defected. Being "Taliban" is much more fluid then you seem to think. Guys who weren't Taliban yesterday likely are today and when local warlords decide it's better to not be Taliban then the reverse will happen.

The company I used to work for did a lot of pilot training for various US proxies and indigenous forces (not me personally, I was on the dumb end of being a guard). There will always be exceptions, but as a whole I would not be really worried about a Taliban air force. Getting one off the ground vs flying it effectively, maintaining it, etc. are different things.

What about the Talibans selling a few helicopters to countries with real pilots? Like Iran and others.
That's probably a bigger threat.

Or them giving away a few aircrafts in exchange for pilot training.

 

[BehindBlueI's]

What about the Talibans selling a few helicopters to countries with real pilots? Like Iran and others.
That's probably a bigger threat.

Or them giving away a few aircrafts in exchange for pilot training.

Iran has their own helicopters and infrastructure to support them. US helicopters for the most part, but some Russian stuff as well.

Having an operational air force is about more than having pilots, it requires maintenance and logistical support. Again, the Taliban isn't going to morph into a western style military force and it's not due to lack of access, it's due to that's not how they fight. You have to stop looking at it through western eyes with western ideas and assuming they are doing the same.

Let me ask you this. Say England invaded France (because, frankly, it's been awhile and historically long overdue. ) and you beat them soundly. Do you know what to learn to fight like the English, or are you now more convinced then ever French military tactics are the best? And your cultures are pretty similar in the grand scheme of things.

 

[KG1]

Iran has their own helicopters and infrastructure to support them. US helicopters for the most part, but some Russian stuff as well.

Having an operational air force is about more than having pilots, it requires maintenance and logistical support. Again, the Taliban isn't going to morph into a western style military force and it's not due to lack of access, it's due to that's not how they fight. You have to stop looking at it through western eyes with western ideas and assuming they are doing the same.

Let me ask you this. Say England invaded France (because, frankly, it's been awhile and historically long overdue. ) and you beat them soundly. Do you know what to learn to fight like the English, or are you now more convinced then ever French military tactics are the best? And your cultures are pretty similar in the grand scheme of things.

I think you touched on one key point. It's one thing to possess the hardware and another to maintain it. I don't see the taliban having the logistical ability to do so.

 

[BehindBlueI's]

I think you touched on one key point. It's one thing to possess the hardware and another to maintain it.

Look at Kuwait. A much more educated country that is very pro-US and has mostly adopted the notion of a western style military. The logistical support is done by foreign workers because it's "beneath" the Kuwaitis to learn to do maintenance. I've heard very similar stories from tanker trainers as well. Status/social standing was more important to them then learning to do field expedient fixes that could potentially save their lives. It's dumbfounding to us. I had initially just chalked it up to laziness, but I read "The Arab Mind" (a book on psychology of Arabs broadly) and it's a lot more than that. There's a cultural aversion to manual labor that's associated, often subconsciously, with sinfulness. The reasoning is that God cursed Adam to till the soil/work for his food due to The Original Sin, so work is a curse. Not working must therefore be what God meant for us, and if you must work the less physical it is the better.

 

[Leadeye]

Look at Kuwait. A much more educated country that is very pro-US and has mostly adopted the notion of a western style military. The logistical support is done by foreign workers because it's "beneath" the Kuwaitis to learn to do maintenance. I've heard very similar stories from tanker trainers as well. Status/social standing was more important to them then learning to do field expedient fixes that could potentially save their lives. It's dumbfounding to us. I had initially just chalked it up to laziness, but I read "The Arab Mind" (a book on psychology of Arabs broadly) and it's a lot more than that. There's a cultural aversion to manual labor that's associated, often subconsciously, with sinfulness. The reasoning is that God cursed Adam to till the soil/work for his food due to The Original Sin, so work is a curse. Not working must therefore be what God meant for us, and if you must work the less physical it is the better.

Never heard that before, but it does explain a great deal. For people like me growing up and living ag/industrial it makes no sense at all.

Without work, and in the beginning most work was agricultural, how can a society progress?

 

[rhamersley]

Biden To Make Sure No Americans Are Stranded In Afghanistan By Stripping Citizenship Of Everyone Stranded There

WASHINGTON, D.C.—In a press conference today, Biden assured the world that he would get every American out of Afghanistan. When asked how he would do this, he explained that on the pull-out date of August 31st he will simply revoke the American citizenship of every American who hasn't shown up...

babylonbee.com

 

[BehindBlueI's]

Never heard that before, but it does explain a great deal. For people like me growing up and living ag/industrial it makes no sense at all.

Without work, and in the beginning most work was agricultural, how can a society progress?

You ever want to go real far down that rabbit hole, a look at cultural norms compared to agricultural methods is pretty interesting. Arabs are a nomadic culture originally, and the Bedouin ideas (and romanticisms of them) influence them in a similar way the cowboy figure has influenced America, but likely more so.

Then compare Western farming with Asian farming. Westerners bust their ass in short spurts with periods of lighter work in between as crops mature and then have an off season (yes, I know there are exceptions, but we're speaking broadly). Asians had much more fastidious farming methods because of the way rice is farmed. You can pretty much always be improving a rice paddy and there was no off season. This supposedly lead to a culture that valued attention to detail and a constant work cycle in Asian societies while breeding the work hard/play hard mentality many Americans value.

The notion that "deep down we're all the same" is true on a few things, but hides so much and a lot of misunderstandings are based on the notion the other guy sees reality the same way we do.

 

[JTScribe]

Look at Kuwait. A much more educated country that is very pro-US and has mostly adopted the notion of a western style military. The logistical support is done by foreign workers because it's "beneath" the Kuwaitis to learn to do maintenance. I've heard very similar stories from tanker trainers as well. Status/social standing was more important to them then learning to do field expedient fixes that could potentially save their lives. It's dumbfounding to us. I had initially just chalked it up to laziness, but I read "The Arab Mind" (a book on psychology of Arabs broadly) and it's a lot more than that. There's a cultural aversion to manual labor that's associated, often subconsciously, with sinfulness. The reasoning is that God cursed Adam to till the soil/work for his food due to The Original Sin, so work is a curse. Not working must therefore be what God meant for us, and if you must work the less physical it is the better.

I've heard there's also a lot of "meh" attitudes toward tasks ... IE, "is this oil filter tight enough?" 'It will be if Allah wills it."

 

[BehindBlueI's]

I've heard there's also a lot of "meh" attitudes toward tasks ... IE, "is this oil filter tight enough?" 'It will be if Allah wills it."

Yes. Inshallah attitude is prevalent. Lack of being detail oriented, lack of being concerned with times and schedules, etc. I'm much more familiar with Gulf Arabs on this topic, but it was frustrating to infuriating to me originally.

 

[Leadeye]

In the maquilas I could understand and had to tolerate some of the "mexican fundamentalism" because the US company that sent you there made the decision to go because they wanted to make more money. It was their country after all, but that didn't change how manufacturing works and some places that moved to mexico thinking they would get rich ended up losing money.

 

[jamil]

View attachment 154893

Bahhhh. Bahhhh.

 

[jamil]

What a dickhead.

Eh, dude needs to get to his naptime cookies before the milk gets too warm.

 

[Tombs]

Apparently vets are getting people out on their own.

Language warning:

 

[Alpo]

Iran has their own helicopters and infrastructure to support them. US helicopters for the most part, but some Russian stuff as well.

Having an operational air force is about more than having pilots, it requires maintenance and logistical support. Again, the Taliban isn't going to morph into a western style military force and it's not due to lack of access, it's due to that's not how they fight. You have to stop looking at it through western eyes with western ideas and assuming they are doing the same.

Let me ask you this. Say England invaded France (because, frankly, it's been awhile and historically long overdue. ) and you beat them soundly. Do you know what to learn to fight like the English, or are you now more convinced then ever French military tactics are the best? And your cultures are pretty similar in the grand scheme of things.