WI governor may call out National Guard to quell riots.

[E5RANGER375]

i dont know too many in a union who would give it up. i hear from people close to me all the time about how the laziest and most worthless workers jobs are saved because of the union. I think unions have RUINED the productivity of our industry in this nation. maybe our ecconomy would be better off if we ditched unions.

 

[localone]

i dont know too many in a union who would give it up. i hear from people close to me all the time about how the laziest and most worthless workers jobs are saved because of the union. I think unions have RUINED the productivity of our industry in this nation. maybe our ecconomy would be better off if we ditched unions.

U really think a cop making $12 with a tiny pension or a $15 per hour firefighter would risk there life to run into a buring hose to save ur familys?

 

[model67a]

The governor has said up to 12,000 teachers would have to be laid of if this legislation does not go through. There are probably a lot of that 12,000 protesting against the bill!!! They should realize that if they are successful in their protest that they are going to lose their job!!! They should be intelligent enough to realize that accepting this bill will still enable them to retain the major portion of their job instead of losing it totally!!!! It should be apparent to them that either they lose part or they lose the whole thing!!!!

 

[Prometheus]

I believe that this is only the beginning of bigger problems ahead for many states in the union.

This situation reminds me of a quote from Frederic Bastiat:

"Everyone wants to live at the expense of the state. They forget that the state lives at the expense of everyone."

+100000000000000

If anyone thinks they understand the law and what it is MEANT to be in America, you have a toddlers understanding...

This single book can bring you up to speed quite quickly and you'll have a better look at how evil those who pervert it really are:
The Law, Frederic Bastiat-
[ame=http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/1440496064]Amazon.com: The Law (9781440496066): Frederic Bastiat: Books[/ame]

Don't be intimidated by the title, it's not as heavy as a war and peace and it's only 150~ pages.

 

[mrjarrell]

+100000000000000

If anyone thinks they understand the law and what it is MEANT to be in America, you have a toddlers understanding...

This single book can bring you up to speed quite quickly and you'll have a better look at how evil those who pervert it really are:
The Law, Frederic Bastiat-
Amazon.com: The Law (9781440496066): Frederic Bastiat: Books

Don't be intimidated by the title, it's not as heavy as a war and peace and it's only 150~ pages.

Try the free version. It's free. Did I mention it was free?

http://www.fee.org/pdf/books/The_Law.pdf

 

[hornadylnl]

U really think a cop making $12 with a tiny pension or a $15 per hour firefighter would risk there life to run into a buring hose to save ur familys?

What's the average private pay in Iraq or Afghanistan? I'll guarantee you it's a hell of a lot less than starting LEO pay. I barely cleared $1500 a month in Bosnia as an E4. That included hazardous duty pay, separate rats, and no federal taxes taken out.

 

[hornadylnl]

The governor has said up to 12,000 teachers would have to be laid of if this legislation does not go through. There are probably a lot of that 12,000 protesting against the bill!!! They should realize that if they are successful in their protest that they are going to lose their job!!! They should be intelligent enough to realize that accepting this bill will still enable them to retain the major portion of their job instead of losing it totally!!!! It should be apparent to them that either they lose part or they lose the whole thing!!!!

And the teachers with tenure and the most seniority don't care if 12,000 teachers get laid off as long as they can keep all their pay and bennies.

 

[ArmedProgrammer]

U really think a cop making $12 with a tiny pension or a $15 per hour firefighter would risk there life to run into a buring hose to save ur familys?

I think that if they won't, they need to be fired and we, the taxpaying public need to hire someone who will. If I'm paying too little - then that price might have to go up, now won't it? Same is true for teachers or anyone else. Even (gasp) programmers like me. If Babjit in East DogCrapistan will do it for cheaper, guess what? I'm out of a freaking job! If quality people will do it for less... no matter the job - then that's the way it rolls.

It's a FREE MARKET.

What I'm saying is this - GUBBAMINT union jobs and wages have been growing like crazy, as people that pander to them (the Chicago machine?) have been paying off political debts. The private sector has been losing jobs - or not growing at a minimum, even as more people enter the workforce.


I have NO problem paying a fair wage to Police, Firefighters, teachers etc. I do have a problem with make work, light up a Camel, sit on your ass type situations that we all know exist. There are a lot of WONDERFUL police,firefighters, teachers , military folks, ALL of which deserve a RAISE. I think we can more than solve the problems by reducing the size of our government, the bloated bureaucracy, and cutting back on the Social entitlements that we have seen fit to dole out. Start by taking out the Depts of Energy and Education. And let the teachers teach...

If we do not address this and get the amount of money that we're spending down - I foresee more of the same kind of argument, strife and even violence in our future. The business owners and the producers will join Atlas in shrugging. And when you want to blame "the Man" you'll have to look in the mirror.

A while back I posted that the Athens riots concerned me greatly when I heard a professor at a Greek university (protesting) say that he neither knew nor cared where the money came from - he just wanted his.... Holy crap, I thought, that place is going to Hell in a bucket.

Today I see the same thing in Madison, Wisconsin.

God help us all if we don't turn this ship around, and soon.

 

[localone]

What's the average private pay in Iraq or Afghanistan? I'll guarantee you it's a hell of a lot less than starting LEO pay. I barely cleared $1500 a month in Bosnia as an E4. That included hazardous duty pay, separate rats, and no federal taxes taken out.

U dont have to explain to me about the military being underpais the wife and I both served...My point being.....This country is a Dang mess right now and its only gonna get worse before it gets better for everyone.NOONE is immune

 

[localone]

The botton line to all this which there were some great posts is if the states managed there money like our grandparents (which didnt believe in debt) then they would all be in better shape..For a while they were all spending like there was no end.

 

[jblomenberg16]

How would u guys feel if ur Parents were the ones out there? If it happens there it could happen here to ANY of us no matter union or nonunion...if they make it easy for the union to get pensions and pay cuts what do u think it will do the the average job out there? The owners of the companys can care less about u..There loyality rest in there bank accounts..I wouls have to believe there are plenty od teachers on this site or members whos parents are teachers..What would u do if this hit home?

With all due respect, what is being done in Wisconsin with its state employees is what many private companies across the world have already had to do.

I have a lot of teacher friends and family, and it is a tough issue that does affect everyone. However, it is worse for those same teachers, firefighters, police officers, etc. if the State is no longer solvent.

Remember the IOU's California had to write a few years ago because it couldn't pay its bills?

Fairness is compensation and benefits in line with equivalent positions in the open market. Fairness is not gauranteed wage increases, free pensions, and disproportionate benefits independent of performance of capability.


In the interest of being "Fair" should the governer instead propose a massive tax hike to all citizens (union and non union alike) to help cover the short fall?

 

[E5RANGER375]

The botton line to all this which there were some great posts is if the states managed there money like our grandparents (which didnt believe in debt) then they would all be in better shape..For a while they were all spending like there was no end.

well i dont disagree with that.

 

[thompal]

How would u guys feel if ur Parents were the ones out there? If it happens there it could happen here to ANY of us no matter union or nonunion...if they make it easy for the union to get pensions and pay cuts what do u think it will do the the average job out there? The owners of the companys can care less about u..There loyality rest in there bank accounts..I wouls have to believe there are plenty od teachers on this site or members whos parents are teachers..What would u do if this hit home?

Oddly enough, I pay MUCH more (about 35% more) for my health insurance this year than I did last year. And, my company no longer contributes 50% to my pension, which is the same as saying I have to contribute more to it for the same expected outcome.

I don't see it as a sign of social injustice, nor do I see some capitalistic oppression at work.

 

[DragonGunner]

U really think a cop making $12 with a tiny pension or a $15 per hour firefighter would risk there life to run into a buring hose to save ur familys?

Volunteer fireman making no money do it all the time....I'm a non union factory worker...why am I being asked to give tax money to a teacher, another factory worker, LEO, firefighter....they are no better than I. They can save up for their retirement just like me an others....if they don't like there job without pensions then they can quit....I hear there are alot of people looking for jobs.....if your company can pay pensions, thats great, the tax paying people of America shouldn't be footing this kind of bill. This all got started by the Socialist mindset, get rid of it....working for the government shouldn't entitle anybody over another person.

 

[thompal]

If the state couldn't afford the promises it made, it should never have agreed to make them in the first place.

I agree 100%! Just as the federal government should never have promised Social Security, Medicare/Medicaid, huge pensions for government employees and fantastic health care benefits, etc.

The states should have never let the unions browbeat them into promising huge pensions, artificially cheap health care, too generous vacation packages, etc.

GM should have never let themselves be talked into offering huge pensions, free health care/dental/vision for life, absurd vacation packages, etc.

Now, since we agree that none of these entities should have EVER promised such things, and we agree that budget shortfalls mean than they simply can not continue to provide these things, how do you propose that things be settled?

You are left with either cutting those expenses, increasing income, or continuing as is and going into bankruptcy.

Before you answer with the answer I expect you will give, remember where "increasing income" comes from. The I will tell you how my health insurance has gone up about 35%, food and gas costs have gone up 10-15%, and my income has gone DOWN about 15-20%, and then ask my how happy I would be to pay even MORE in taxes so government employees can keep those same things.

 

[right winger]

I hope Gov.Walker does call out the National Guard.
These thugs need to find out they are not above the law.

 

[wag1911]

I agree 100%! Just as the federal government should never have promised Social Security, Medicare/Medicaid, huge pensions for government employees and fantastic health care benefits, etc.

The states should have never let the unions browbeat them into promising huge pensions, artificially cheap health care, too generous vacation packages, etc.

GM should have never let themselves be talked into offering huge pensions, free health care/dental/vision for life, absurd vacation packages, etc.

Now, since we agree that none of these entities should have EVER promised such things, and we agree that budget shortfalls mean than they simply can not continue to provide these things, how do you propose that things be settled?

You are left with either cutting those expenses, increasing income, or continuing as is and going into bankruptcy.

Before you answer with the answer I expect you will give, remember where "increasing income" comes from. The I will tell you how my health insurance has gone up about 35%, food and gas costs have gone up 10-15%, and my income has gone DOWN about 15-20%, and then ask my how happy I would be to pay even MORE in taxes so government employees can keep those same things.

What he said...

I want to add one thing to the mix having seen this secondhand....LEO unions are fairly worthless as they have almost no leverage. It's illegal for a union to call on police to stop work primarily because of the nature of the job they do. It's why you almost never see a strike by LEOs.

The only thing I ever saw the union do was defray the costs of a lawyer to repeatedly sue the department claiming racism, sexism, and every other BS claim this officer made. This happened to be the laziest and most out of shape officer on the force (other LEOs considered her a disgrace not only to the department, but to the human race).

 

[CVMA544]

Let's here from the LEO's out there. They are all in a union...want to give it up? why or why not? What do they do for you? Believe that representation is no longer necessary? What will happen when YOUR pension is no longer there? Pilots? How much training will your electricians get if there was no union? Want them to wire your house..I'll pay the premium thank you.

State Police aren't Union, Daniels scrapped state union when he came in.

That being said, the ISP unionized while a Democrat Gov was in and met with all kinds of resistance to bargin.

Also in Indiana as far as the ISP contract went, anytime the State didn't want to do something in the contract it had the right to ignore or delete that portion of the contract at will without recourse for the most part.

Before, during, and after the union for ISP we still had to make pension and insurance payments every pay check.

For example mine was about $135-145 for insurnace and about 130-140 for pension every pay check, every two weeks, so 26 times a year.

These numbers are 2 years old I know they have went up since then.

Our pension is 50% after 25 years, and NO COLA. What you retire at is what you get regardless of inflation or pay increases to working troops.

Figure 2-3% per year in inflation or cost of living, it doesn't take long to be behind, thats whay most Troops work more than 25 years, usually closer to 30 years, we have mandatory retirement at 65 raised from 60 a few years ago.

ISP pay was also frozen in place about 2 years ago, so no longevity or seniority increases. The pay matrix started at 1 year and goes to 20 years at that time you are topped out.

A probationary Trooper makes 38,444 a year and it goes to 60,008 at twenty years.

But all pay was frozen by the State so if you were a 1st year Trooper then your still getting first year pay until the freeze is lifted.

All the surrounding state's State Police Dept's make more than ISP does.

In Illinois the job I got paid 55,000 a year to do (In Indiana) would have netted me about 100,000 with a pension of 80% with paid insurance the same with a Federal LEO position in most any agency after only 20years.

When ISP retires they have to pay for their insurance at about 400 a month, and since ISP is a state pension pays no Soc Sec if you work a second job and get Soc Sec then Soc Sec takes 60% off the top because your a retired cop, then anohter 30% because your pension is considered a "private pension".

So Soc Sec is a non issue as your contributions to SS would only be from a part time job, unless you retired from ISP early enough to go work another full time job. SO your 1200 SS retirement is down to about 500 because your prior job was that of police officer.

I didn't want to work or live anywhere but Indiana, and in the good times others in the private sector made more money doing whatever. But I was doing what I loved where I wanted, money isn't everything, but now times are tough the state cuts everywhere, people are laid off and having work you enjoy and making enoug to live on is a good thing.

And 1 more thing, under federal law if the state pays on a 28 day pay period then overtime doesn't start until after the 171st hour worked in the pay period, thats 42.5 hours a week. And of course any holiday vaction day, comp time day keeps you from getting overtime pay because unlike the private sector and a 40hr week we had a 171hr 4 week period.

Still, good job, and loved it, and miss it, wish I was working instead of vegatating.

 

[thompal]

Let's here from the LEO's out there. They are all in a union...want to give it up? why or why not? What do they do for you? Believe that representation is no longer necessary? What will happen when YOUR pension is no longer there? Pilots? How much training will your electricians get if there was no union? Want them to wire your house..I'll pay the premium thank you.

I'd hardly say that's a fair argument. NOBODY *WANTS* to give up what they currently enjoy. However, the adults in the room UNDERSTAND that there is little choice. The non-government workers in this country have already taken a HUGE hit in their pocketbook. You do understand that all of the money you are more than willing to hand over to government employees comes FROM all of the citizens - the same citizens who are likely paying their share of the tax bill from their unemployment check?

If the average citizen/taxpayer see his paycheck continue to go down drastically, and sees his healthcare become so expensive that it is unaffordable, yet his taxes continue to go UP so that government employees can still get cheap healthcare, RAISES, and paid vacations, that there will soon be a taxpayer revolt, and then NOBODY in government gets paid because the flow of money from the taxpayer to the government employees will stop.

If the government gets too heavy-handed in their efforts to extract more and more from citizens who have less and less, then it may be more than just a taxpayer revolt. It could easily turn into that which is not mentioned.

 

[thompal]

+100000000000000

If anyone thinks they understand the law and what it is MEANT to be in America, you have a toddlers understanding...

This single book can bring you up to speed quite quickly and you'll have a better look at how evil those who pervert it really are:
The Law, Frederic Bastiat-
Amazon.com: The Law (9781440496066): Frederic Bastiat: Books

Don't be intimidated by the title, it's not as heavy as a war and peace and it's only 150~ pages.

There are three books that forever changed the way I viewed politics when I read them as a teenager: 'The Law' by Bastiat, 'No Treason' By Lysander Spooner, and 'Common Sense' By Paine.

Those combined with 1984 and Atlas Shrugged and I've come to see modern-day politicians as the blood-sucking leaches they are, and those who would use politicians to gather more riches for themselves as the whores and opportunists they really are, willing to throw anyone and everyone else to the lions just to protect their wealth.