Why does FLORIDA HIGHWAY PATROL need this ???

[lrahm]

I've seen it. The lunatic with his son that leans out the window and blows away the chief of police's son. That scumbag got everything that was coming to him. But that's one example. I know it happens. What I'm saying is that it's a statistical improbability.

How many warrant services have you done? How many times have you been shot at whilst performing them? How many has your department done? How many of the officers doing them have been shot at.

When I first became an officer, we had an officer who was shot point blank with a .45. He was the only officer who had a balistic vest at the time (second chance). Dave D. then drew his service revolver and empted it. I have been shot at several times and it isn't fun. I wear my vests religiously now. I don't have a balistic plate in it but I don't know if that would help with some of the weapons available.

 

[NYFelon]

When I first became an officer, we had an officer who was shot point blank with a .45. He was the only officer who had a balistic vest at the time (second chance). Dave D. then drew his service revolver and empted it. I have been shot at several times and it isn't fun. I wear my vests religiously now. I don't have a balistic plate in it but I don't know if that would help with some of the weapons available.

How long ago was that that your coworker was shot? What were the circumstances of you coming under fire? Were they traffic stops and arrest warrant services, or were you responding to a call of a violent crime in progress? What span of time occurred between instances?

I'm glad you were not injured, and I hope you remain safe.

 

[UncleMike]

exaggeration much?

Statistically speaking, how often are officers shot at during routine traffic stops and warrant services? I wonder if that data has ever been compiled? Probably not, but I thik it'd make an interesting study.

You can spend days checking the stats and stories here.
Law Enforcement Line of Duty Deaths in 2011
That is of course if you're truly interested in learning the facts instead of blowing smoke to cloud the issue.

 

[Bill of Rights]

We didn't. How many people did Charles Whitman kill in that tower while Officers were powerless with their handguns to stop him. It took almost 2 hours and with BORROWED hunting rifles, the officers were able to storm the tower and kill him. From Wiki: On page 100 of the report, the Department cites four trends which prompted the development of SWAT. These included riots such as the Watts Riots, which in the 1960s forced the LAPD and other police departments into tactical situations for which they were ill-prepared; the emergence of snipers as a challenge to civil order; political assassinations; and the threat of urban guerrilla warfare by militant groups. "The unpredictability of the sniper and his anticipation of normal police response increase the chances of death or injury to officers. To commit conventionally trained officers to a confrontation with a guerrilla-trained militant group would likely result in a high number of casualties among the officers and the escape of the guerrillas." To deal with these under conditions of urban violence, the LAPD formed SWAT, notes the report.
But hey, if you want us to revert in time, I choose the 20's. A time when police departments were armed with all the same goodies the military had...I want my BAR and Tommy Gun.

Fine, but I want everyone else who does so lawfully to be able to have the same things without exorbitant taxes and artificially inflated pricing. We are, after all, in the same general line of work... we just have different jurisdictions in which we uphold and enforce the laws-Mine is "wherever I am".

As to your earlier points, Denny, it may have been Rahm Emanuel who popularized (or publicized) the phrase "Never let a crisis go to waste.", but LBJ lived it. Using the UT-Austin case, the riots, etc., and the mantra of "officer safety" was a convenient method by which the wretched excesses we see today are perpetuated. Don't misunderstand me: I am all for you guys in blue going home each night without any extra holes in you, and you know this from my posts. I just challenge the concept of such excesses being "necessary" for such things as simple (not high-risk) warrant service or traffic enforcement (aka revenue generation).

"Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom.
It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves." William Pitt

Blessings,
Bill

 

[dross]

Yep. Police work is dangerous. Just not as dangerous as fisherman, firefighter, cab driver, logger, and several other jobs.

 

[Denny347]

I think the point of the chickens is that using an armored vehicle to raid a chicken farm seems like using it because you have it.

Without having all the facts, sounds a bit excessive. Why is this not a department specific issue? Are IMPD's armored vehicles armed? No. Can anyone here site me a particular instance where IMPD/MCSD/IPD misused their vehicles? They in fact have saved quite a few lives. Since we seem to use them appropriately, why should we not be allowed to continue to use them? If a department in Texas misuses their patrol rifles, should I no longer be allowed to use mine? Same with our patrol cars. I understand that people see them and they LOOK SCARY. But looks is that last thing we should judge them by. As we all know, looks are deceiving. Any person can buy these surplused armored vehicles. For crying out loud, they are older than dirt.

 

[dross]

Without having all the facts, sounds a bit excessive. Why is this not a department specific issue? Are IMPD's armored vehicles armed? No. Can anyone here site me a particular instance where IMPD/MCSD/IPD misused their vehicles? They in fact have saved quite a few lives. Since we seem to use them appropriately, why should we not be allowed to continue to use them? If a department in Texas misuses their patrol rifles, should I no longer be allowed to use mine? Same with our patrol cars. I understand that people see them and they LOOK SCARY. But looks is that last thing we should judge them by. As we all know, looks are deceiving. Any person can buy these surplused armored vehicles. For crying out loud, they are older than dirt.

Okay Denny, you can use it. But if you don't take care of it or you misuse it, we're putting it away and you can't play with it anymore.

 

[rambone]

I think there would be a lot less backlash towards armored personnel carriers if the Peace Officer mentality still prevailed in law enforcement. Unfortunately the current state of the laws in modern America has departed from "keep the peace" and morphed into "do as we say." That's not the individual cop's fault, it is just the nature of the beast we are dealing with.

What people see here, is another tool that's going to be used to enforce crazy ass laws. For every active shooter scenario that actually happens, the vehicle will be deployed in 50 no-knock raids to confiscate plants or stop people from gambling on card games in their living room.

How many Peace Officers can you find in this picture?
​

 

[dross]

I think there would be a lot less backlash towards armored personnel carriers if the Peace Officer mentality still prevailed in law enforcement. Unfortunately the current state of the laws in modern America has departed from "keep the peace" and morphed into "do as we say." That's not the individual cop's fault, it is just the nature of the beast we are dealing with.

What people see here, is another tool that's going to be used to enforce crazy ass laws. For every active shooter scenario that actually happens, the vehicle will be deployed in 50 no-knock raids to confiscate plants or stop people from gambling on card games in their living room.

I believe you have summed up the concern quite well. I am still, however, willing to let Denny use his armored vehicle to keep from being shot. I trust him with it.

But by no means is J706 allowed to touch it, and UncleMike can't supervise it.

 

[Denny347]

Yep. Police work is dangerous. Just not as dangerous as fisherman, firefighter, cab driver, logger, and several other jobs.

Oh there are definitely more dangerous jobs than police work. However, none of them require facing active human aggression willingly. That is counter intuitive to human nature. That takes a different kind of person, not better...just different.

 

[Denny347]

Okay Denny, you can use it. But if you don't take care of it or you misuse it, we're putting it away and you can't play with it anymore.

 

[Bill of Rights]

I'd like to congratulate all of the Tin Foil Hatters, and Conspiracy nuts here.
You've finally graduated from the "Brady School of Warped Logic"
You are using EXACTLY the same logic concerning that damn APC as the Brady Bunch use to get more restrictive gun laws enacted!!

"Oh my Heavens. That evil looking APC (gun) can actually be used by the Police (Citizens) to hurt someone. Well then, lets take away those evil APCs (guns) so that none of those untrustworthy Cops (Citizens) can run amok and hurt THE CHILDREN."

Perhaps the next time there's a barricaded sniper situation in Indy, or anywhere else, you people would volunteer to take care of the problem?

The difference I see is that the Bradys want to restrict the rights of individual citizens... and would love nothing better than to use you good cops and a bit of misinformation or bad law to make that happen. For the record, I have not, do not now, and do not intend to start using the terms "untrustworthy" in re: LEOs, with the exception of those specific LEOs who choose to violate the trust they are given.

Blessings,
Bill

 

[UncleMike]

I think there would be a lot less backlash towards armored personnel carriers if the Peace Officer mentality still prevailed in law enforcement. Unfortunately the current state of the laws in modern America has departed from "keep the peace" and morphed into "do as we say." That's not the individual cop's fault, it is just the nature of the beast we are dealing with.

What people see here, is another tool that's going to be used to enforce crazy ass laws. For every active shooter scenario that actually happens, the vehicle will be deployed in 50 no-knock raids to confiscate plants or stop people from gambling on card games in their living room.

How many Peace Officers can you find in this picture?​

More Brady arguments!!
Potential for harm does not equal actual harm.

 

[Kirk Freeman]

What is the obsession with chickens? I must have missed the joke

Did you not watch the news video from the UK website?

Oh, man, it is hysterical. Let's watch it again.

Hey, Stallone, grab me a drumstick and hand me another APFSDS round. Aikido military arts.

"Couldn't you just knock on the door?"

[ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-BxPjDCuqjg&feature=related[/ame]

Potential for harm does not equal actual harm

Unless you are speaking of the government.

 

[Denny347]

I think there would be a lot less backlash towards armored personnel carriers if the Peace Officer mentality still prevailed in law enforcement. Unfortunately the current state of the laws in modern America has departed from "keep the peace" and morphed into "do as we say." That's not the individual cop's fault, it is just the nature of the beast we are dealing with.

What people see here, is another tool that's going to be used to enforce crazy ass laws. For every active shooter scenario that actually happens, the vehicle will be deployed in 50 no-knock raids to confiscate plants or stop people from gambling on card games in their living room.

How many Peace Officers can you find in this picture?
​

I will concede to your point. I agree. There ARE departments over using/miss using this stuff. I REALLY do not like this picture.

 

[NYFelon]

You can spend days checking the stats and stories here.
Law Enforcement Line of Duty Deaths in 2011
That is of course if you're truly interested in learning the facts instead of blowing smoke to cloud the issue.

Thanks for that link. I added it to my favorites so I can look at it. Do you know if departments keep publicly available records of traffic stops done, or where I could find it? I'm interested because I do not like the training ideal that "there is no such thing as a routine traffic stop." I doubt it has been done, and if need be Id like to compile and calculate the statistical danger factor an officer faces when doing a traffic stop. Of course area of operation would have to factor, but the use of officer safety as a justification for everything from disarming lawfully armed citizens to no-knock raids that result in civilian deaths is abhorrent to me. I'm by no means a law enforcement expert, but some aspects of the psychological conditioning that is part of officer training that cadets receive I find an affront to the idea of a peace officer.

There have been 101 instances of officer fatalities this year, 53 of them are what would be intentional or homicide. See I had read the 101 number
at P1 forums the other day, but I didn't realize it included accidental death or medical conditions such as heart attack.

As I've been typing this response I've been using my google-fu, and found a study on officer danger, but the data is over 10 years old. Nevertheless, I will read it, but just glancing over it, it seems the average number of traffic stops annually (obviously underreported as it is based on citations issued, so warning and release stops are not calculated) is five million plus.

Time to do some reading.

 

[dross]

Oh there are definitely more dangerous jobs than police work. However, none of them require facing active human aggression willingly. That is counter intuitive to human nature. That takes a different kind of person, not better...just different.

Now you want me to bring up convenience store clerks and customer service reps.

 

[Kirk Freeman]

For every active shooter scenario that actually happens, the vehicle will be deployed in 50 no-knock raids to confiscate plants or stop people from gambling on card games in their living room.

Don't forget the chickens, Sheriff Joe doesn't.

If all you have is an IFV, then everything looks like the FEBA.

 

[UncleMike]

The difference I see is that the Bradys want to restrict the rights of individual citizens... and would love nothing better than to use you good cops and a bit of misinformation or bad law to make that happen. For the record, I have not, do not now, and do not intend to start using the terms "untrustworthy" in re: LEOs, with the exception of those specific LEOs who choose to violate the trust they are given.

Blessings,
Bill

I stand by my post!
The arguments here, against the deployment of the APC, are nothing more than fear mongering ala The Brady Campaign.
Period!!
You'd think a bunch of Firearms enthusiasts who have heard that crap for decades would recognize that fact.
Of course, I wonder how many people posting here actually have an active interest in firearms. I'm betting there are several people here who's sole purpose is to stir the Political pot and drive a wedge between LEO's and everyone else.
It seems to be working pretty well too.

 

[lrahm]

How long ago was that that your coworker was shot? What were the circumstances of you coming under fire? Were they traffic stops and arrest warrant services, or were you responding to a call of a violent crime in progress? What span of time occurred between instances?

I'm glad you were not injured, and I hope you remain safe.

I have been on over 30 years. I have seen 5 officers shot and a ton shot at. They were all a variety of complaint runs to car stops. Dave was shot in a car stop when the driver ran and was cornered in an alley. Jim was shot through a steel door with a 12 ga. slug (Jim stood ther and shot him back) during a domestic fight. John was shot on a car stop. Howard was shot on a guy held up in an apartment with a rifle. Dave (2) was shot while in a bank during a robbery. All survived.

I came on just after a lot of the civil unrest we had and was shot at several times just because I wore a uniform.