Violence only brings more violence!
Thank you Neville Chamberlain.
Once you convince our enemies of that, then we'll be able to talk.
Go ahead. I'll wait.
Violence only brings more violence!
Violence only brings more violence!
...snip...
I am not here to justify the actions of the terrorists, the genocidal dictators, or the leaders of rogue nations.
What are "roving wiretaps" then?
* I do know something about these things. My Air Force Specialty was Cryptologic Linguist. At the time the code was 208X3A. Since then they've revised the code scheme and I believe the current one in 1N3X3. Google it. Personally, I ended up being a glorified clerk-typist, but I had to go through all the security briefings and training before they'd let me into the building, so I do have some knowledge of what the policies were then to compare with what I'm seeing now.
So if you regularly make calls to a non-US person (one party of the conversation has to be such for this to apply) who is determined to be likely involved in terrorism, then, yes, that call might be intercepted and recorded--and the non-US person's portion of the call (after removing any personal references to you) might be disseminated among intelligence agencies. This is exactly what you would have expected if you had regularly made phone calls ot KGB headquarters, or known Soviet agents, during the Reagan years.
Oh what have I done!?!?!?!?!?!?!
Aside from the conversation going on in my head this is the best one I have had all day!!
Sorry, we haven't used torture (in the open and accepted anyway) in our 200+ year history (up until the dubya anyway).
Using your logic you cannot tell me that we need torture now and didn't need it during the Revolution.. or during the war of 1812, the civil war, WWI, WWII (think atomic bomb race), Korea, Vietnam ect. ect.
Gentlemen, with respect, that does not say "...that all Americans are created equal...", it says "all men". To further drive that point home, our wise Founders added another layer: "that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable rights". Clearly, our Founders were saying that the right to life, liberty, the pursuit of happiness, and indeed all rights belonged to all men, no matter the line that divided them.
I'll argue when you take up arms against my country you forfeit your rights. When you are caught on the battlefield shooting at my soldiers you have lost all claims to Life, Liberty, and the Pursuit of Happiness.
Now... We are presented with a situation in which enemies caught may have information vital to saving lives. Many if not all of us, given those specifics, would say that there is no line we cannot cross in retrieving that information. As long as the enemy is olive skinned, wears a turban or a robe, or in short is Not Like Us, it's easy to make that statement. When the "enemy" starts looking a lot more like us, and his status as "enemy" is decided by one guy in an office, especially one who already defines himself as better than the rest of us or whose loyalties and even citizenship are questionable, the line becomes very blurred. Once the concepts of waterboarding, of torture, of psychological warfare, etc exist, they are available for use, especially when there is no outside knowledge or oversight that does not come with a "wink wink, nudge nudge". We cannot put the genie back in the bottle. Pandora's box is open. What we can do is define strict rules which we, the people, emplace upon our servants, government, setting the use of that knowledge as beyond the pale, and further, strict punishment for those who violate those rules.
As noted above the Genie has been out of the bottle for over 100 years and yet we act like all of this is new.
Is there a place for torture, for psy-ops, etc.? I don't know. Part of me knows that to dissuade criminals, you have to create a possible penalty they will not want to pay. Loss of life is usually what we've chosen, saying that to defend ourselves (on a personal level) means that the criminal has already chosen that someone will die and it is our job to ensure that the one who does so is not us. Alternatively, given that analogy, would we, individuals, be justified in torturing a criminal before calling the police to take him away? Of course not, but the terrorist has many times already made peace with the idea of dying as a martyr.
Very very nice. You have gained my utmost respect. May I ask as to what language? Sorry for the thread jack.
Wire taps are funny things. They don't have to be listening in on your phone anymore. Just remember the "Eye in the Sky" and Laser hearing aids.
First off thanks for your service.
That being said why is it ok to listen to anything that I have to say while I'm on U.S. soil? Because someone thinks that they should? How are so many thousands being wiretapped? Why were laws enacted that the Bush administration can NOT be investigated after they leave office? Why the secrecy?
And one thing we learned post cold-war, as many old Soviet documents came to light was that they. were. coming. Much of the "fearmongering" that the left accused the right of doing was right.Ahh, a reference to the cold war days. Yep. Give up your rights American People, the COMMUNISTS ARE COMING!
Exactly. We beat them. And the tools used to beat the Warsaw Pact in the Cold War are being brought to bear in defeating the RIFs.Oh wait, we beat them. Just like we will beat the RIF's.
That is not what they want. That is not what the don't want. They don't care what rights you give up or not.We, however, NOT beat them by giving up ANY rights. That is what they want.
Back in the 80's, Reagan was a believer in Small Government. This was actually a rather new thing. Neither Nixon nor Eisenhower were "small government" (by the standards of their day). However, Reagan saw an opportunity to actually bring about the fall of Communism and remove that particular Sword of Damocles hanging over the US's head. Thus the aggressive military build up, the Strategic Defense Initiative (expensive? Yep. But we could afford it better than they could afford technology to counter it), etc. Recommend reading "The Strategy of Technology" by Possony and Pournelle. That, combined with the Democratic Congress's insistence on major increases in their beloved entitlement, vote buying, programs led to drastically increased Federal Spending. As Reagan and his advisors predicted, cutting taxes lead to increased revenue. Unfortunately, Federal Spending outpaced the increased revenue leading to growth in the Federal deficit.In one attack we will give up our rights? They won. They hate our way of life? Then they just changed it. All in one attack and some sweeping legislation from a republican party that says they stand for "small government."
Take note and read this. Do not gloss this over. We will beat the RIF's the same way we beat the communists.
You have a remarkably naive view of how we beat the communists. You forget the very large spending that got the Soviet military leaders to look across the border and say "not today" and to do that every day for 70 years.With Coca Cola, Mickey Mouse, and other forms of comsumerism.
Yes it is. And that we can have this discussion is the greatest indication thing about it.On a side note the above post was in all caps. In an effort to stop everyone from reading it like I was yelling it was changed. Great discussion folks!!!
What are "roving wiretaps" then?
And you got this where?The government doesn't have to tell me. Or a judge. Or anyone else for that matter.
How are so many thousands being wiretapped? Why were laws enacted that the Bush administration can NOT be investigated after they leave office? Why the secrecy?
Through the Boy Scouts I participated in many sessions at the state house as a Page for various people. I achieved my Eagle Scout by helping to put my little town on the map.
So Michiana... What are you willing to do to help your Country?