US Marine Corps nearing the final decision the new .45

[Birds Away]

Let me see if I have this straight:

The general consensus from Afghanistan and Iraq, from the troops actually using the weapons in combat, is that the M9 and specifically the 9mm is inadequate.
But we here on INGO know better. It must be the troops who are inadequate. Ok, got it.

9mm ball ammo and 45acp ball ammo are essentially the same in terms of performance and stopping power.
...........sorry.....trying to stop laughing.......hang on......ok, whew! Thanks, I needed that.

To prove that the 1911 platform requires much more maintenance you asked a guy who teaches maintenance of the 1911 whether it needs a lot of maintenance. Shockingly enough, he said "yes".
Duh

A SA/DA M9 Beretta is a much simpler platform to operate than a SAO 1911.
HUH? Are you being serious or just yanking our chains?

Apparently, if you drink enough koolaid you can convince yourself of anything.
...and finally, hopefully for the last time, The United States Military isn't going to buy a semi-automatic handgun that does not have a safety, period! Why is that so hard to grasp? The videos and stories of people shooting themselves in the legs, feet and wherever are truly entertaining (when they aren't tragic) but we don't need to see that from the front lines. We buy weapons to be force multipliers, not force reducers.

 

[Sylvain]

...and finally, hopefully for the last time, The United States Military isn't going to buy a semi-automatic handgun that does not have a safety, period! Why is that so hard to grasp? The videos and stories of people shooting themselves in the legs, feet and wherever are truly entertaining (when they aren't tragic) but we don't need to see that from the front lines. We buy weapons to be force multipliers, not force reducers.

What about training soldiers?

I guess it's easier to buy gun with safeties than to teach the soldiers about gun safety.
In those videos of people shooting themselves in the leg some people have been using guns with external safeties like the 1911.
When you draw you gun as you remove the safety and pull the trigger of course you will shoot yourself in the leg.
Those accidents happen with or without safeties.
IT IS ALL ABOUT TRIGGER DISCIPLINE.

KEEP YOUR STUPID FINGER AWAY FROM THE TRIGGER AND YOU WONT SHOOT YOURSELF BY ACCIDENT.
Why is it so hard to understand?

The Swiss Military didn't teach their soldiers the four basic safety rules until 2003 (I think, not sure of the date).
Before 2003 they had one or two people shooting themselves or someone else by accident during training, every year.
Since they are teaching soldiers the four gun safety rules they had only one accident, one in ten years instead of two each year.
They didn't add safeties to the guns, they are still using the same guns they had prior to 2003.
Only the training changed.

 

[Birds Away]

You equip and train to the lowest common denominator. That's how it's always been and how it will always be. I don't blame the gun. I know where the fault lies. I believe a gun without safeties is intended for an advanced operator. The guns the military uses are issued not only to combat troops but to a lot of other people who don't get the same training or have the same opportunity to maintain proficiency with a weapon. Training costs time and money and many of these "other" people have highly technical jobs that can't be pushed aside often enough to give them the training they need. That is just a fact.

 

[Jeremiah]

peopel have shoot themselvs with a 1911.

.45 offers nothing but weight over 9mm, no statistical proof on one shot stops, no greater wounding characteristcs. No more potetnial energy. It doesn't, physics is a hard to argue with, use google.

the gentlemen I refrenced started life fixing the 1911's their department or unit was carrying. They have a well established history of building useful, and very trouble free 1911's. They strike me as the type you can rely on. They don't trach talk the 1911, they explain to people based upon their expereince what it has historically taken to keep a 1911 running. They often list a variety of manufactuers that make parts of suffcient quality, and they explain whay their suggestions matter. Do some reading, I don't think that you can really discredit them becuase they are "some guy on the internet" when that is your position.

I haven't claimed the beretta m9 to be less complicated, only easier to train with people to use, and considerably less dependant on care and maintainence than a 1911.

the 1911 taught many pistol designers problem areas to desgin out of the system.
-internalt extractors
- multi part feed ramps ( there is a reason sig, Cz, Glock, M&P all have the feed ramp attached to the barrel)
-grip safeties

the list goes on. The fact of the matter is technology has improved, lessons have been learned. and any number of tests out their back up my remarks. More modern pistols are more tolerante of abuse, neglect, and adverse enviroments than the 1911.

they also manage this in a lighter, higher capcaity platform.


Stopping power is not an objective measure, if you dig long enough you will find stories ( gasp some of them documented on camera) where people have advanced through shotgun rounds and even AK bullets ( as we all lnow how powerfull the big bullet ishttp://www.texasgopvote.com/blog/story-seven-military-heroes-fort-bragg-afghanistan-08203 )

One .22 lr bullet has worked before. one 9mm has worked as well. The ability to make follow-up shots quickly is a benefit to 9mm pistol.

 

[Sylvain]

You equip and train to the lowest common denominator. That's how it's always been and how it will always be. I don't blame the gun. I know where the fault lies. I believe a gun without safeties is intended for an advanced operator. The guns the military uses are issued not only to combat troops but to a lot of other people who don't get the same training or have the same opportunity to maintain proficiency with a weapon. Training costs time and money and many of these "other" people have highly technical jobs that can't be pushed aside often enough to give them the training they need. That is just a fact.

I just dont think that the 4 safety rules are that hard to teach to a new shooter and it doesn't take that much time.
I see many young kids who know and follow those rules because they were taught by their parents.
I would think it's even easier to teach an adult.

 

[Jeremiah]

safeties only work if you remeber to put them on. If your argument is that the millitary is the lowest common denominator, then you have to think that they won't put themselfves back on. Also the argument the Xd owners like about their precious grip safety goes out the door as soon as someone pics up the pistol

 

[Birds Away]

Sounds like a politician....instead of giving the troops what they ask for, because they are there and they know from personal experience, give them what YOU think they need and tell them to shoot better. Google that!

 

[Sylvain]

Sounds like a politician....instead of giving the troops what they ask for, because they are there and they know from personal experience, give them what YOU think they need and tell them to shoot better. Google that!

Actually a politician would probably agree with you and think that because there is a safety on the gun people wont have any negligent discharges, problem solved.
Just like they think that putting a "no gun" sign in front of a school will prevent mass shootings.
I know from personal experience that training is the key to gun safety, not the gun.
I have used guns without safeties and I never shot myself or someone else by accident, and I have seen people using "safe guns" with safeties shooting themselves by accident.

 

[Jeremiah]

if you constantly give people what they ask for for no other reason you end up with texas lawmen that carry wilson combat 1911's when a glock and the same dollar of ammo that you would have spent on just the 1911 should have produced more competent shooters.

 

[Birds Away]

safeties only work if you remeber to put them on. If your argument is that the millitary is the lowest common denominator, then you have to think that they won't put themselfves back on. Also the argument the Xd owners like about their precious grip safety goes out the door as soon as someone pics up the pistol

When you have a group as large as the US military you have to train to the lowest common denominator. Do you understand that sentence? That is not saying the US military is the lowest common denominator.

 

[HICKMAN]

The United States Military isn't going to buy a semi-automatic handgun that does not have a safety, period! Why is that so hard to grasp? The videos and stories of people shooting themselves in the legs, feet and wherever are truly entertaining (when they aren't tragic) but we don't need to see that from the front lines. We buy weapons to be force multipliers, not force reducers.

Hmm, we have as many LEOs in this country carrying handguns in this country as we do troops carrying the M9. Yet, magically, they don't end up shooting themselves every day. Wonder how that is?

 

[HICKMAN]

That is not saying the US military is the lowest common denominator.

green LT's

 

[Rob377]

...
The United States Military isn't going to buy a semi-automatic handgun that does not have a safety, period! Why is that so hard to grasp? ....

ORLY?

https://www.fbo.gov/?s=opportunity&mode=form&id=74d2725dd23ffee901a9e4efe6509a4f&tab=core&_cview=1

The only reason the Sig P226 wasn't the "M9" is because Beretta under-bid them on magazine and spare parts cost. NOT because it lacked a manual safety.
Thousands were were bought anyway

Then there's the M11s in the inventory. Or all the SIGS that the Coast Guard just bought.

The US military has already bought thousands upon thousands of handguns without a manual safety.

 

[kawtech87]

ORLY?

https://www.fbo.gov/?s=opportunity&mode=form&id=74d2725dd23ffee901a9e4efe6509a4f&tab=core&_cview=1

The only reason the Sig P226 wasn't the "M9" is because Beretta under-bid them on magazine and spare parts cost. NOT because it lacked a manual safety.
Thousands were were bought anyway

Then there's the M11s in the inventory. Or all the SIGS that the Coast Guard just bought.

The US military has already bought thousands upon thousands of handguns without a manual safety.

The SEALS use Sigs too.

 

[Jeremiah]

10-8 Performance: Bellevue 1911 Class AAR

 

[NHT3]

They didn't run this past James Yeager, did they? lol

VERY GOOD, I'm here for the levity

 

[U.S. Patriot]

ORLY?

https://www.fbo.gov/?s=opportunity&mode=form&id=74d2725dd23ffee901a9e4efe6509a4f&tab=core&_cview=1

The only reason the Sig P226 wasn't the "M9" is because Beretta under-bid them on magazine and spare parts cost. NOT because it lacked a manual safety.
Thousands were were bought anyway

Then there's the M11s in the inventory. Or all the SIGS that the Coast Guard just bought.

The US military has already bought thousands upon thousands of handguns without a manual safety.

The Coast Guard starting fielding the Sig 228 shortly after I got out. We carried the 92FS before then. We also carried with the hammer down and never used the safety.

 

[HICKMAN]

The SEALS use Sigs too.

yup, and Army SF are using Glock 19s overseas as well.

 

[RBrianHarless]

I hope that whoever the USMC chooses for the .45 that it will be a reliable firearm and easy maintenance. With as much exposure that Sig Sauer is getting lately I can see them getting the nod. For a pistol that will take a licking and keep on ticking, Glock would be the way to go. I have owned both and see them as the choices. CZ and FN are also getting a ton of attention.

 

[HICKMAN]

as I understand it, this is for MARSOC, so they could go with a higher end .45, since they don't have to worry about providing for all USMC.