To Mask or Not to Mask?

[johny5]

...If I don't choose to protect myself on my own accord, the government is going to step in and mandate compliance.

Compliance driven by the specter of retribution - this is the dream of every aspiring totalitarian!

There are only two directions to pull here: self-protection or fatalism. I choose self-protection.

Sorry, PaulF, though you've made it clear that you have a penchant for the prison of two ideas, I refuse to play that game.

 

[melensdad]

My ilk? independents?

Im not a democrat. I don't want government-mandated masks and social distancing. However, I realize that masks and social distancing are the only tools available to me, and If I don't choose to protect myself on my own accord, the government is going to step in and mandate compliance.

I don't want authoritarianism...and this is why I have been vocally opposed to authoritarian actions taken by our government...regardless of which team hold office.

There are only two directions to pull here: self-protection or fatalism. I choose self-protection.

I'm a libertarian and hate mask mandates but realize pretty much the same things you conclude.

Denying facts and not protecting myself (mask & social distancing) will lead to mandates and closures.

So for the freedom lovers, the voluntary mask and voluntary social distancing is the far better choice than the mandated closure of the economy, mandated masks, etc.

 

[jamil]

Well, kinda funny, but it's also some facile reasoning. No one is claiming that you're gonna catch the farts from smelling farts. We detect smells from odor molecules which are only a few manometers. Also the claim about masks isn't that masks prevent aerosolized particles of corona virus from penetrating. Of course we're all familiar with the often stated claim that through droplets spewed by coughing, sneezing or talking, is the primary way of spreading it.

 

[jamil]

This is the crux of the issue. PAULF, we do not all agree on the direction you (and your ilk) are trying to pull. And many on your side are wholly unwilling to have the discussion.

Authoritarianism is this - we have decided, you will comply. If you do not comply, you will be brought into alignment, through whatever means necessary.

This is also starting to sound an awful lot like contempt. It is the contempt for each other that primarily prevents reasonable discussion. Contempt isn't reasoned, it's felt.

 

[johny5]

Denying facts and not protecting myself (mask & social distancing) will lead to mandates and closures.

So for the freedom lovers, the voluntary mask and voluntary social distancing is the far better choice than the mandated closure of the economy, mandated masks, etc.

Two things:
1. Can we get specific about which facts are being denied and by whom?
2. I cannot abide this "closing the economy" rhetoric. It is not mere economic activity that is interfered with. It is all of civil society. The desire to refer to this as a "closing of the economy" is a transparent attempt to position this as "lives vs money" (read: greed). This is an extension of the unceasing attack on the free-market system.

 

[jamil]

I'm a libertarian and hate mask mandates but realize pretty much the same things you conclude.

Denying facts and not protecting myself (mask & social distancing) will lead to mandates and closures.

So for the freedom lovers, the voluntary mask and voluntary social distancing is the far better choice than the mandated closure of the economy, mandated masks, etc.

Yeah, but you missed claiming they eat puppies. What about the puppies?

 

[johny5]

This is also starting to sound an awful lot like contempt. It is the contempt for each other that primarily prevents reasonable discussion. Contempt isn't reasoned, it's felt.

Yep!

 

[melensdad]

Two things:
1. Can we get specific about which facts are being denied and by whom?
2. I cannot abide this "closing the economy" rhetoric. It is not mere economic activity that is interfered with. It is all of civil society. The desire to refer to this as a "closing of the economy" is a transparent attempt to position this as "lives vs money" (read: greed). This is an extension of the unceasing attack on the free-market system.

1. We know that many people are asymptomatic or have very mild symptoms and are spreading it without realizing they have it. We know that there are many in the population with pre-existing conditions that are vulnerable to serious complications. We know that masks actually do reduce the spread by those who have it, even if they don't know they have it. We know that most covid is spread on droplets that are easily caught by a mask There is now SOME evidence that covid may be aerosolized and spread without droplets, but that is still in the hypothesis phase, if that is true then it will spread regardless of if people wear masks but worldwide evidence still strongly shows that wearing masks dramatically slows spread.

2. Fair point. Feel free to substitute closing society for closing the economy. I have no argument with either phrase. I just don't want the government to mandate either.

Yeah, but you missed claiming they eat puppies. What about the puppies?

Smoked, BBQ'd or deep fried?

 

[johny5]

1. We know that many people are asymptomatic or have very mild symptoms and are spreading it without realizing they have it. We know that there are many in the population with pre-existing conditions that are vulnerable to serious complications. We know that masks actually do reduce the spread by those who have it, even if they don't know they have it. We know that most covid is spread on droplets that are easily caught by a mask There is now SOME evidence that covid may be aerosolized and spread without droplets, but that is still in the hypothesis phase, if that is true then it will spread regardless of if people wear masks but worldwide evidence still strongly shows that wearing masks dramatically slows spread.

GunFearinGunTotin dealt with the numbers, up-thread. Add to this the fact that a rep from the WHO clearly stated that asymptomatic spread is 'rare'. Your chances of getting Covid from an asymptomatic carrier (or being an unwitting carrier who infects others) are diminishingly small.

 

[Rookie]

Wow... ALL of these pro-maskers are pretty intolerant.

Fixed.

 

[Studio 417]

.

 

[johny5]

Covid-19 adheres to droplets, and while a cloth mask will potentially stop most of the droplets from expelling into the air, it doesn't stop them all. There is a fine mist that accompanies a cough or sneeze. The mesh size of a cloth mask is approximately 20um, and the micron size of Covid-19 is 12um. So even if the majority of the particles are caught, the particles that escape, can potentially penetrate someone else's mask when they inhale.

I'd also like to know (and imagine others would, as well) the implications of wearing a moist, absorbent, highly permeable mask, coated with the exhalations of others around for extended periods of time. Seems like a petri dish strapped to one's face (I know, I said diaper earlier. Roll with it, people.).

Also, I find the dearth of interest in the differing efficacy of different varieties masks telling. To me it appears that efficacy of protection is a distant second to the desire to see compliance.

 

[GodFearinGunTotin]

Covid-19 adheres to droplets, and while a cloth mask will potentially stop most of the droplets from expelling into the air, it doesn't stop them all. There is a fine mist that accompanies a cough or sneeze. The mesh size of a cloth mask is approximately 20um, and the micron size of Covid-19 is 12um. So even if the majority of the particles are caught, the particles that escape, can potentially penetrate someone else's mask when they inhale.
Believing the number of cases is ignorance. The numbers have been admittedly inflated, and there is no way to track actual cases and keep them separated.

I’m not so sure it’s the inhalation that’s the main threat. At least it is my understanding with other colds and flus, it’s touching an object that the droplets have come in contact with and then touching your eyes/nose/face. Wash your hands. If you’re going to wear a mask quit touching it, if you can. Keep your distance. And most importantly (and this goes for regular colds and flus), stay home if you have reason to suspect you’re sick.

 

[jamil]

1. We know that many people are asymptomatic or have very mild symptoms and are spreading it without realizing they have it. We know that there are many in the population with pre-existing conditions that are vulnerable to serious complications. We know that masks actually do reduce the spread by those who have it, even if they don't know they have it. We know that most covid is spread on droplets that are easily caught by a mask There is now SOME evidence that covid may be aerosolized and spread without droplets, but that is still in the hypothesis phase, if that is true then it will spread regardless of if people wear masks but worldwide evidence still strongly shows that wearing masks dramatically slows spread.

2. Fair point. Feel free to substitute closing society for closing the economy. I have no argument with either phrase. I just don't want the government to mandate either.





Smoked, BBQ'd or deep fried?

If I'm gonna eat a puppy, it's BBQ'd of course.

 

[paintman]

A friend of my wife’s family is in the hospital now with bacterial meningitis. They were told that their best guess is she got it from wearing a mask all day every day. Obviously she should have been washing it or trading it out if she was going to wear it. But still it happened. Weather it actually came from the mask or not is nothing but a doctors guess.

 

[d.kaufman]

Grocery shopping yesterday at my local Meijer. I'd guess around 90% compliance on wearing a mask. Of that percentage I would venture to say 10%, maybe less, actually using a mask that's effective and worn properly. The rest have the cheapest cloth mask they could make or buy. The cloth masks clearly state on the box that they are ineffective at stopping Coronavirus' Most wearing below the nose and most playing constantly with it and pulling it down to talk. This includes the employees. Zero covering the eyes, which is also a way of transmission.

Where I work I constantly see people pull in the parking lot and have their masks on. As soon as they come in the shop they pull it down to talk. I'd guess this is 90% of those that show up wearing a mask that do this.

What a joke to even think that the masks are going to do **** to stop or even slow down the spread!

 

[terrehautian]

What a joke to even think that the masks are going to do **** to stop or even slow down the spread!

But they are wearing a mask, they are doing their part or at least looking like it.

 

[DoggyDaddy]

Well, kinda funny, but it's also some facile reasoning. No one is claiming that you're gonna catch the farts from smelling farts. We detect smells from odor molecules which are only a few manometers. Also the claim about masks isn't that masks prevent aerosolized particles of corona virus from penetrating. Of course we're all familiar with the often stated claim that through droplets spewed by coughing, sneezing or talking, is the primary way of spreading it.

True. I went to Taco Bell wearing my mask and I still caught the farts. Since I didn't notice anyone else around me farting, I can only conclude that the other people were asymptomatic.

 

[dusty88]

I'm a libertarian and hate mask mandates but realize pretty much the same things you conclude.

Denying facts and not protecting myself (mask & social distancing) will lead to mandates and closures.

So for the freedom lovers, the voluntary mask and voluntary social distancing is the far better choice than the mandated closure of the economy, mandated masks, etc.

yep. That was 100% the message of last Wednesday's presser imo

 

[dusty88]

GunFearinGunTotin dealt with the numbers, up-thread. Add to this the fact that a rep from the WHO clearly stated that asymptomatic spread is 'rare'. Your chances of getting Covid from an asymptomatic carrier (or being an unwitting carrier who infects others) are diminishingly small.

That quote was misused. She was referring to the % of people that stay asymptomatic not people who are presymptomatic.

Also it is a very different thing to say
- a small % of asymptomatic people spread vs claiming that a small % of infections come from asymptomatic individuals.

I'm sharing an article in the coronavirus thread. The more cases are followed the more it is thought that a small number of people who are asymptomatic (or presymptomatic) are the big disease spreaders