The Real Costs of Electric Car Ownership - CNET

[Ingomike]

Which brings us back to the question I asked. If EVs were never a thing do you think they would build *more* Mavericks and *less* F-150s so they could make less money but there would be more opportunities for lower market buying? More Rangers and fewer Broncos and F-150s? I don't.

The answer is we will never know because the governments, federal and California have used their power on the market so it us not a free market from which to expect free market reactions.

As usual my original point is changed, we were talking about EV’s current short lifespan and I said: “To further add to this the lower income ranges depend on reliable used cars and so do a lot of the third world“. So my point had nothing to do with manufacturers selling new cars, it was about how short lifespan vehicles will affect supply of used vehicles in the future and other government edicts have affected the current market.

 

[jamil]

Not what I was addressing, but sure. R&D costs (which Tesla doesn't report in per unit profits, btw) are front loaded, and they are trying to break into a market with an existing legacy business to drag along.

I'm talking about the rationale. What he says doesn't match what they've done. MSRP raised regardless and cheaper cars fell out of the line up regardless, and often well before EVs were a thing. Did EV development costs just happen to coincide with COVID supply chain restrictions?

Not Chrysler/Stellantis, but easy example:

Ford makes the Maverick, a hybrid, and the cheapest vehicle they offer by a large margin. $11k cheaper for the base compared to the base F-150. How many do they actually build? F-150 sales are some 7:1 to last year.

The new Ranger Raptor, significantly cheaper than the F-150 Raptor at $21k less base vs base. I was seriously interested in potentially buying one, but they don't exist except on paper and in foreign markets, a mere handful have been built for the US market. Plenty of F-150 Raptors, though.

Which brings us back to the question I asked. If EVs were never a thing do you think they would build *more* Mavericks and *less* F-150s so they could make less money but there would be more opportunities for lower market buying? More Rangers and fewer Broncos and F-150s? I don't.

It’s not just one thing. They’re losing money on every EV they sell. They’ve been pressured to increase sales on those losers. Of course there are other factors in hiking MSRP. This is one of them. When I say, “at least a little”, that’s the point.

Now, many manufacturers are backing off of EV’s because the market just doesn’t want them. Not yet. Fix the ways that ICE is better, and the market will change. Trying to force it has obviously failed.

 

[Timjoebillybob]

I didn't watch the video, so good to know they leave it on at the boneyard.

All fires have hot spots which can quickly and easily light back up...I may know a thing or two about fires.

Yep, so no real difference for EVs

As with most stuff they push, all the great benefits of an EV are turning out to be lies.

Them being "green" I'll agree with you 100%, but the instant torque and cost per mile being cheaper than a comparable size, performance ICE not so much. Convenience depends on way to many factors to say one way or another.

With 30,000 miles on the '23 I picked up in May or my gas guzzling Hemi pickup, I'm surely not their target audience!

Agreed. Now for someone who has a 10 mile round trip for work, a trip or two to the grocery store a week, church, etc, space to install a home charger, and ideally solar panels. That would be a completely different scenario.

EVs have their place, so do ICE, and hybrids. I disagree with the govt interference in the market, but don't have a problem with any of the three types I listed.

 

[firecadet613]

Yep, so no real difference for EVs

Them being "green" I'll agree with you 100%, but the instant torque and cost per mile being cheaper than a comparable size, performance ICE not so much. Convenience depends on way to many factors to say one way or another.

Agreed. Now for someone who has a 10 mile round trip for work, a trip or two to the grocery store a week, church, etc, space to install a home charger, and ideally solar panels. That would be a completely different scenario.

EVs have their place, so do ICE, and hybrids. I disagree with the govt interference in the market, but don't have a problem with any of the three types I listed.

Total costs per mile, I'll stick with ICE over EV. My last company vehicle, a 2020 Equinox, I put 178k miles on it in 3 years. It still had a great resale price, so factoring that in, the total costs per mile weren't bad. It had the original engine and did NOT burn any oil.

At nearly 200k miles, an EV would need a new battery pack. Plus, it's initial cost for a loaded SUV that size would be more than a comparable ICE SUV that size. So, an EV is not cheaper.

There is NO market for the last scenario which you describe, without government involvement. Without government involvement, the costs for the EV and solar panels would be astronomical... making it unmarketable.

 

[firecadet613]

For those that still haven't watch the video here are some important details. As you can see it took many personnel and resources.

Once firefighters knew that an electric
vehicle was involved the Hazardous Materials team responded to the scene
those apparatus are equipped with a
specialized electric vehicle fire
blanket

A Metro Fire Rescue pickup truck
was used to pull the burning electric
vehicle out of the garage and onto the
driveway where it was safer and there
was less of a risk of the house catching
on fire.

Blankets cost anywhere between $3,000 and
$5,000 and the one that we are using
here at South Metro weighs 62 lbs so
it's a very heavy blanket it takes at least 4 people to place on the vehicle.

Two blankets were used at this
incident really out of an abundance of
caution fire investigators determined
that the red vehicle that you see in the
video is where the fire originated and
that is an electric vehicle the second
vehicle in the garage is a hybrid
meaning it does have a lithium ion
battery pack. Out of an abundance of caution our firefighters used the same protocol covered it with the blanket and took it to a safe location.

YouTube Transcript - read YouTube videos

Great posts. @Timjoebillybob did you see all this in the video?

 

[JCSR]

Great posts. @Timjoebillybob did you see all this in the video?

It's one of the few videos on here I actually watched so I can't be too hard on anyone.

 

[BehindBlueI's]

The answer is we will never know because the governments, federal and California have used their power on the market so it us not a free market from which to expect free market reactions.

As usual my original point is changed, we were talking about EV’s current short lifespan and I said: “To further add to this the lower income ranges depend on reliable used cars and so do a lot of the third world“. So my point had nothing to do with manufacturers selling new cars, it was about how short lifespan vehicles will affect supply of used vehicles in the future and other government edicts have affected the current market.

Yeah. We'll never know if car manufacturers will manipulate the market toward their most profitable offerings, particularly when demand exceeds supply.

You don't think manufacturers selling new cars directly impacts the used car market? Like those non-existent used Mavericks because the new ones didn't get made are irrelevant?

I don't know that we can assume shorter lifespans, either, but total cost of ownership is almost certainly going to be higher when comparing options in the same general class. Insurance alone, ick. But no need to retread that, I think it's been covered.

 

[BehindBlueI's]

It’s not just one thing. They’re losing money on every EV they sell.

Still haven't answered my question. Let's simplify. Fill in the blank: Car Company X is selling every car they make at 100% of their asking price. They will now lower the price because _________.

Supply/demand will continue to set price. Tesla isn't lowering prices because they are making or losing money, they are lowering prices because people quit buying at the old price. Ram didn't jack the prices on the Challenger because it got so much more expensive to make, they did it because people would pay it.

Nothing but sinking demand rising over available supply of a given model is going to cause manufacturers to lower prices regardless of what they do with the per unit profit. Sink it in EVs, give it to shareholders, dive in it Scrooge McDuck style. It may matter to the shareholder and the CEO's bonus, but it won't change what the dealership buys the vehicle for wholesale or what the customer pays retail.

 

[Shadow01]

I have a 22 year old pickup truck with the original engine and no part failures beyond a water pump. Can I expect the same longevity out of an EV with the original battery pack?

 

[Timjoebillybob]

Great posts. @Timjoebillybob did you see all this in the video?

Yes.

For those that still haven't watch the video here are some important details. As you can see it took many personnel and resources.

Once firefighters knew that an electric
vehicle was involved the Hazardous Materials team responded to the scene
those apparatus are equipped with a
specialized electric vehicle fire
blanket

Hazmat team most likely already on duty so no additional resources needed, simply utilized. My small local FD has hazmat trained personnel on every shift.

A Metro Fire Rescue pickup truck
was used to pull the burning electric
vehicle out of the garage and onto the
driveway where it was safer and there
was less of a risk of the house catching
on fire.

Wouldn't surprise me if the truck was already on scene, there is usually a full sized SUV at every fire locally. Shift commander drives it. If not I've seen video of them using the fire truck to drag vehicles.

Blanketscost anywhere between $3,000 and
$5,000 and the one that we are using
here at South Metro weighs 62 lbs so
it's a very heavy blanket it takes at least 4 people to place on the vehicle.

Two blankets were used at this
incident really out of an abundance of
caution fire investigators determined
that the red vehicle that you see in the
video is where the fire originated and
that is an electric vehicle the second
vehicle in the garage is a hybrid
meaning it does have a lithium ion
battery pack. Out of an abundance of caution our firefighters used the same protocol covered it withthe blanket and took it to a safe location.

YouTube Transcript - read YouTube videos

I'd guarantee that there were at least 4 firefighters on scene. So in reality the only additional resources/manpower would be the blankets, which once again are reusable.

 

[firecadet613]

Yes.

Hazmat team most likely already on duty so no additional resources needed, simply utilized. My small local FD has hazmat trained personnel on every shift.

Wouldn't surprise me if the truck was already on scene, there is usually a full sized SUV at every fire locally. Shift commander drives it. If not I've seen video of them using the fire truck to drag vehicles.


I'd guarantee that there were at least 4 firefighters on scene. So in reality the only additional resources/manpower would be the blankets, which once again are reusable.

But if it's not a quick wet and forget it like an ICE vehicle fire, you're tying up resources, which aren't available if someone else needs them.

A typical car fire can be fully extinguished by one responding engine company, with 500-750 gallons of water.

EV fires take much more water than that, or the blanket, as you seem to be fond of.

If their blanket (or two) are in use going to the boneyard on the EV, versus just the charred ICE car on the tow truck, do they mark back in service without their special EV blanket?

 

[BehindBlueI's]

I have a 22 year old pickup truck with the original engine and no part failures beyond a water pump. Can I expect the same longevity out of an EV with the original battery pack?

I personally wouldn't bet on any new vehicle sold today to be major repair free in 22 years, but I'd bet less on an EV. If I had to bet on a long term EV, it'd be a Tesla. There's plenty of 300k mile+ examples out there on the original battery and with no major repai. But there's plenty that didn't make it, too, and like I said earlier it's an expensive bet.

 

[JCSR]

Yes.

Hazmat team most likely already on duty so no additional resources needed, simply utilized. My small local FD has hazmat trained personnel on every shift.

Wouldn't surprise me if the truck was already on scene, there is usually a full sized SUV at every fire locally. Shift commander drives it. If not I've seen video of them using the fire truck to drag vehicles.


I'd guarantee that there were at least 4 firefighters on scene. So in reality the only additional resources/manpower would be the blankets, which once again are reusable.

So you're telling us that no more manpower or resources are needed in an EV fire that an ICE fire. Damn man you don't have to admit you're wrong just stop posting stupid sh*t.

 

[JCSR]

But if it's not a quick wet and forget it like an ICE vehicle fire, you're tying up resources, which aren't available if someone else needs them.

A typical car fire can be fully extinguished by one responding engine company, with 500-750 gallons of water.

EV fires take much more water than that, or the blanket, as you seem to be fond of.

If their blanket (or two) are in use going to the boneyard on the EV, versus just the charred ICE car on the tow truck, do they mark back in service without their special EV blanket?

Don't forget these are probably "Smart" blankets that remove themselves, , clean themselves, fold them selves up and and fly back to the fire station. No additional manpower needed.

 

[Timjoebillybob]

So you're telling us that no more manpower or resources are needed in an EV fire that an ICE fire. Damn man you don't have to admit you're wrong just stop posting stupid sh*t.

I didn't say no more, the blankets are the main additional resource. The rest needed are most likely on scene or on duty already.

Don't forget these are probably "Smart" blankets that remove themselves, , clean themselves, fold them selves up and and fly back to the fire station. No additional manpower needed.

Oh you mean like the smart hoses, chainsaws, o2 packs...

 

[jamil]

Still haven't answered my question. Let's simplify. Fill in the blank: Car Company X is selling every car they make at 100% of their asking price. They will now lower the price because _________.

Supply/demand will continue to set price. Tesla isn't lowering prices because they are making or losing money, they are lowering prices because people quit buying at the old price. Ram didn't jack the prices on the Challenger because it got so much more expensive to make, they did it because people would pay it.

Nothing but sinking demand rising over available supply of a given model is going to cause manufacturers to lower prices regardless of what they do with the per unit profit. Sink it in EVs, give it to shareholders, dive in it Scrooge McDuck style. It may matter to the shareholder and the CEO's bonus, but it won't change what the dealership buys the vehicle for wholesale or what the customer pays retail.

Seems like you're asking more than one question. Price is determined by multiple factors. Supply/demand, cost of production, competition, brand recognition/reputation, profit, economic factors. Obviously if people are willing to pay that price companies won't lower it. But none of that really has to do with my point.

Car companies have been jacking price tags for a multitude of reasons, one of those, as has been fairly well reported, is that they're losing money on EV's and they need to recoup that cost somewhere to make shareholders happy. But, that hasn't been well received by consumers either. Cars are sitting on lots because fewer people can or will pay that price for vehicles that they used to pay much less for.

They can find people who will pay the price. But to Mike's point, price filters out potential buyers, and cars sit on lots longer. And that puts downward pressure on price.

 

[jamil]

I personally wouldn't bet on any new vehicle sold today to be major repair free in 22 years, but I'd bet less on an EV. If I had to bet on a long term EV, it'd be a Tesla. There's plenty of 300k mile+ examples out there on the original battery and with no major repai. But there's plenty that didn't make it, too, and like I said earlier it's an expensive bet.

A lot, not all, is how well you maintain it. Obviously to a good extent is luck of the draw. There's not as much maintenance to an EV. But how you drive it will affect how long it lasts. ICE based vehicles require more maintenance and if you don't beat on them too much and maintain them well, you'll get the most of your luck of the draw.

 

[BehindBlueI's]

They can find people who will pay the price. But to Mike's point, price filters out potential buyers, and cars sit on lots longer. And that puts downward pressure on price.

Right. Because supply/demand sets price. Nobody is disputing that bit, and it's exactly my point. Supply/demand sets price and the makers' goal is to make as much money as possible, period.

Cost of production doesn't directly, especially for non-commodity goods. If it did, there would be no incentive toward efficiency and nobody would go out of business, everyone could just run on a cost + scheme forever. It *does* affect the price you have to have to stay in business, mind you. Let's use Tesla again. Raising wages to keep workers since those pesky union guys got higher wages from the Big 3 so non-union guys get a raise as well to keep a labor force.... but lowering prices on their vehicles because demand is faltering as more viable alternatives hit the market and interest rates, etc put a dent in demand overall.

Obviously to a good extent is luck of the draw.

Yup. But also added complexity and CAFE standards pushing for thinner lubricants, lighter components, etc. make that draw a little more tilted away from long term reliability. I would welcome being wrong, but I think we'll find we peaked in long term reliability pre-COVID. Even Toyota is accepting components from suppliers they would have refused prior.

I'm pretty well set on just replacing whatever component needs replaced on my PW as long as I need a truck. I don't want an EV, I don't want built-in spyware, I don't want to beta-test the Hurricane, etc.

 

[Flingarrows]

So you're telling us that no more manpower or resources are needed in an EV fire that an ICE fire. Damn man you don't have to admit you're wrong just stop posting stupid sh*t.

No dog in the fight…

Do metro areas have the personnel on staff, training, hazmat, blankets? Probably

I moved 7 years ago from a town of 2200. May sons family still live in that town. We are back there very frequently.

There are a handful of people that I know (small town life) with Tesla’s. I am thinking that is going to be a deal if one catches fire in a garage. They are a largely volunteer fire department. That’s one town of thousands across the us.

My point: it can be a very big deal depending where you are at.

I am not anti electric. I am anti government driven mandates, and burying the notion that they are not extreme green. Making the batteries alone…

 

[Timjoebillybob]

But if it's not a quick wet and forget it like an ICE vehicle fire, you're tying up resources, which aren't available if someone else needs them.

A typical car fire can be fully extinguished by one responding engine company, with 500-750 gallons of water.

EV fires take much more water than that, or the blanket, as you seem to be fond of.

If their blanket (or two) are in use going to the boneyard on the EV, versus just the charred ICE car on the tow truck, do they mark back in service without their special EV blanket?

Anything that needs a response ties up resources. Heck in my town an ambulance run generally ties up an ambulance, a fire truck, and an LEO. The fire truck is simply in case they need additional manpower and/or equipment.

I'm not "fond" of the blankets, they used them in the video which is why I'm discussing them. Although they do seem to be effective.

No idea, if their chainsaw gets damaged do they mark back in service without it?