The Official Hot Rod Thread - Part 4: Burnouts for Distance

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  • thunderchicken

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    Ok, I lied. I keep thinking about it. Asked the guy who's supposed to tune the car, he said 10psi is safe, in theory.

    I have 2 questions:

    1 - how much does it usually cost to have JUST pistons put in an engine? I'm comfortable doing anything that's not machining/balancing. I know I'll need pistons, rings, and bearings. I'd like to just dingle-ball hone the cylinders (they still have cross hatching, can't tell if there's a taper or not). Can I take the shop my rotating assembly and have them balance a new set of forged pistons?

    2 - I need some shop names you guys trust for this work.

    For what it's worth, I would go ahead and throw some pistons in it. If it were me, this is where I would start... Then I would look around and make sure that the factory rods are up to the task. There are some very budget friendly I beams out there from places like Eagle that will handle 600hp without an issue. If you can clean it up with a dingle berry hone and the bores look good, I would roll with it.Screenshot_20220428-025835.png
     

    churchmouse

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    For what it's worth, I would go ahead and throw some pistons in it. If it were me, this is where I would start... Then I would look around and make sure that the factory rods are up to the task. There are some very budget friendly I beams out there from places like Eagle that will handle 600hp without an issue. If you can clean it up with a dingle berry hone and the bores look good, I would roll with it.View attachment 197519
    Good call on the rods. That is a weak link. We have pushed 425 from a SB Chevy with stock reciprocating parts in the past and beat on them but a solid summer and the bearings told the truth. The stock rods have a fuse.
     

    thunderchicken

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    All the more reason to seal it up in the cylinders. Good gaskets and head studs.
    Not being one with much (if any) blue Oval knowledge I would wonder as to the rods/main webs. But how much parasitic loss will you have in reality through the drive train. I know it’s higher than 25 and 50 is more realistic but that’s a number you need to pin down if possible.
    450 at the crank should be doable with boost.
    Main webs shouldn't be an issue but the rods can be somewhat hit & miss just depends how they may have previously been abused.
    I fully agree with you on head studs, they are significantly better than head bolts and I wouldn't even consider using stretch to yield bolts. I'm a HUGE fan of Cometic MLS head gaskets huge fan .
     
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    thunderchicken

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    Good call on the rods. That is a weak link. We have pushed 425 from a SB Chevy with stock reciprocating parts in the past and beat on them but a solid summer and the bearings told the truth. The stock rods have a fuse.
    Yeah and we know that mad scientist is going to abuse it like a rented mule.

    Throw those pistons and a set of rods & bearings in it and seal it up tight with a good oil pump inside and let it eat

    If the new heads have valve guide plates don't think about using anything but hardened push rods. Those will whittle the push rods like an old man outside an old country store on a summer night
     

    churchmouse

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    Main webs shouldn't be an issue but the rods can be somewhat hit & miss just depends how they may have previously been abused.
    I fully agree with you on head studs, they are significantly better than head bolts and I wouldn't even consider using stretch to yield bolts. I'm a HUGE fan of Cometic MLS head gaskets hug fan .
    That you will be spinning this up well past the 4800 safe zone for stock stuff (yes 5500 is the high water mark) to make those power figures that is where the rod caps cry out in pain. Even with new ARP rod bolts you are still pulling on the rod caps.
    Yes on the head gaskets.
    Reliability has a price.
     

    thunderchicken

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    That you will be spinning this up well past the 4800 safe zone for stock stuff (yes 5500 is the high water mark) to make those power figures that is where the rod caps cry out in pain. Even with new ARP rod bolts you are still pulling on the rod caps.
    Yes on the head gaskets.
    Reliability has a price.
    Indeed. I know it adds up quick but yes, reliability has a price.
    I get it needs to be a budget friendly build but the rotating assembly is going to take some serious abuse from the increased cylinder pressure and higher rev's.
     

    Jaybird1980

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    I'm wanting to run however much boost it takes to make 400 at the tires. Going off of the MUSTANG hp numbers, it's 225 factory. This new engine will have a better intake, cam, and heads. Probably closer to 300 at the crank. I'm completely spit balling that number.

    I'd need between 425-450 to make 400 at the tires.

    Being a little crude with numbers, but 14psi theoretically doubles your horsepower.
    So if it makes 300 with the new parts and I need to make an extra 150 to hit my target, in theory I only need 7psi.

    Man... Maybe it will do what I want? Now that I've "crunched" the numbers I'm not as afraid of it.

    I will say, my biggest fear is reliability. I don't want to be starting off every run wondering, "is this gonna be the one" because you all should know I'm gonna beat this thing mercilessly.

    PS - kinda funny to think that my Cummins was making 600 at the tires with 60psi...
    Yeah I would definitely want to throw some pistons and rods in it at that point. If you do the ball hone try to find a scrap block somewhere to do some test runs. Figure out speed and how fast to go to get a good looking pattern
     

    thunderchicken

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    Yeah I would definitely want to throw some pistons and rods in it at that point. If you do the ball hone try to find a scrap block somewhere to do some test runs. Figure out speed and how fast to go to get a good looking pattern
    Just as a reference, in the past we just chucked in a 1/2" drill and held the trigger about half speed and make full passes in/out smooth and consistent. It doesn't take much but try to make equal passes in/out of each cylinder.
     

    jeffsqartan

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    OK, so seeing a lot of good ideas floating around. I'm looking into multiple paths to a resolution there.

    Let's throw this one out here:
    The entire reason I wanna use the Explorer 302 is - it has the heads I want, it ran well when pulled. The Mustang's 302 has some nasty vibration starting around 3k, and getting really bad up through 3500-4500rpm. It kind of continues past that, but sometimes smooths out.

    I read some stuff the other day that makes me wonder if there's a bad thrust bearing causing this. The super wild part about this vibration is that, if I hit a perfect shift (I don't know what makes it perfect), then there IS NO vibration at all in that gear, until I shift again or re-engage the clutch. It makes no damn sense and I've replaced everything but the engine to fix it.

    Since the pistons are such a big deal, I'm thinking I should just pull the Mustang 302 out, see if I find an obvious sign of what is causing that vibration, and hope it doesn't mean that it needs a new rotating assembly.

    No money has been spent directly on the Explorer 302 at this time. All the parts I have are still fresh and could just as easily be put in the Mustang 302. I'm sure I'll need bearings and rings for the Mustang 302, but that's not a huge deal compared to pistons, rods, and machine work.

    It means the car is without a motor for longer than I wanted, but if it gets me forged pistons and a better motor without wondering, "is this gonna blow up today or next week" then maybe that's the real answer?


    Not gonna lie, if I get that Mustang 302 out and it looks like hot garbage, I'm stuffing the Explorer 302 in, running it on low boost, and building one of the 351's to go in its place before it explodes.
     

    Jaybird1980

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    OK, so seeing a lot of good ideas floating around. I'm looking into multiple paths to a resolution there.

    Let's throw this one out here:
    The entire reason I wanna use the Explorer 302 is - it has the heads I want, it ran well when pulled. The Mustang's 302 has some nasty vibration starting around 3k, and getting really bad up through 3500-4500rpm. It kind of continues past that, but sometimes smooths out.

    I read some stuff the other day that makes me wonder if there's a bad thrust bearing causing this. The super wild part about this vibration is that, if I hit a perfect shift (I don't know what makes it perfect), then there IS NO vibration at all in that gear, until I shift again or re-engage the clutch. It makes no damn sense and I've replaced everything but the engine to fix it.

    Since the pistons are such a big deal, I'm thinking I should just pull the Mustang 302 out, see if I find an obvious sign of what is causing that vibration, and hope it doesn't mean that it needs a new rotating assembly.

    No money has been spent directly on the Explorer 302 at this time. All the parts I have are still fresh and could just as easily be put in the Mustang 302. I'm sure I'll need bearings and rings for the Mustang 302, but that's not a huge deal compared to pistons, rods, and machine work.

    It means the car is without a motor for longer than I wanted, but if it gets me forged pistons and a better motor without wondering, "is this gonna blow up today or next week" then maybe that's the real answer?


    Not gonna lie, if I get that Mustang 302 out and it looks like hot garbage, I'm stuffing the Explorer 302 in, running it on low boost, and building one of the 351's to go in its place before it explodes.
    Sounds like a plan.

    Do you know the year of the 302 in the mustang?
    If I recall the earlier 302's used a lighter flywheel and sometime in the 80's maybe they went to a heavier flywheel.

    Not 100% on that but there's some blue oval guys in here that would know. Not even sure if you can accidentally get them swapped.
     

    femurphy77

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    You clearly haven't had the right kind of mushrooms today.

    Do that and then stare at it, you will understand then.
    OH this is one of those pictures that if you look "thru" it you see the pod of whales frolicking in the lagoon that has a sailing yacht crewed by a bunch of midget strippers with CM at the helm.

    Man I am NOT going to stare at THAT picture very long!
     

    femurphy77

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    I'm wanting to run however much boost it takes to make 400 at the tires. Going off of the MUSTANG hp numbers, it's 225 factory. This new engine will have a better intake, cam, and heads. Probably closer to 300 at the crank. I'm completely spit balling that number.

    I'd need between 425-450 to make 400 at the tires.

    Being a little crude with numbers, but 14psi theoretically doubles your horsepower.
    So if it makes 300 with the new parts and I need to make an extra 150 to hit my target, in theory I only need 7psi.

    Man... Maybe it will do what I want? Now that I've "crunched" the numbers I'm not as afraid of it.

    I will say, my biggest fear is reliability. I don't want to be starting off every run wondering, "is this gonna be the one" because you all should know I'm gonna beat this thing mercilessly.

    PS - kinda funny to think that my Cummins was making 600 at the tires with 60psi...
    If you're putting down 400 rwhp you should be wondering "is this the run". I know several serious autocrossers that are running 450ish chp in a stock block and it's not a matter of "IF" they split the block neatly in two, it's a matter of "WHEN". Seen it done twice at major divisional events and once at nationals. Mucks up the course pretty good, especially when some moron ties onto the car and drags it back thru half the course just to make sure ALL of the oil has dripped out of the remains onto the course.
     

    femurphy77

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    Sounds like a plan.

    Do you know the year of the 302 in the mustang?
    If I recall the earlier 302's used a lighter flywheel and sometime in the 80's maybe they went to a heavier flywheel.

    Not 100% on that but there's some blue oval guys in here that would know. Not even sure if you can accidentally get them swapped.
    Yeah I believe you're onto something here JB, seems to me they had a 50 ounce damper/flywheel arrangement and whatever the other was. I'd almost bet a 1/2 gallon of Blue Bell ice cream he's got a bastardized combo there.

    don't know how that could have happened.
     

    jeffsqartan

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    Yeah I believe you're onto something here JB, seems to me they had a 50 ounce damper/flywheel arrangement and whatever the other was. I'd almost bet a 1/2 gallon of Blue Bell ice cream he's got a bastardized combo there.

    don't know how that could have happened.
    Both the balancer and flywheel have been replaced. I know they're both 28oz models.
    The engine - well, I'm ASSUMING it's a 92 block. I know for sure it's a hydraulic roller block, but I don't know what crank/piston combo is inside. I asked about that being the issue one time, and got a combination of, "the entire car would shake all the time, not just at a certain RPM" and "it would shake so bad that it would have failed in the 20k+ miles you've put on it."

    And like I said, I can hit a shift just right where it's smooooooth. Like so smooth that it literally hurts to push in the clutch or change gears. I've left it in 4th, running 65 at 3500rpm for an extended period on the highway JUST because it was so smooth I didn't want to put it in 5th and vibrate.
    You'd think an engine with the wrong balance would vibrate regardless of how "lucky" your shift is.
     

    thunderchicken

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    Both the balancer and flywheel have been replaced. I know they're both 28oz models.
    The engine - well, I'm ASSUMING it's a 92 block. I know for sure it's a hydraulic roller block, but I don't know what crank/piston combo is inside. I asked about that being the issue one time, and got a combination of, "the entire car would shake all the time, not just at a certain RPM" and "it would shake so bad that it would have failed in the 20k+ miles you've put on it."

    And like I said, I can hit a shift just right where it's smooooooth. Like so smooth that it literally hurts to push in the clutch or change gears. I've left it in 4th, running 65 at 3500rpm for an extended period on the highway JUST because it was so smooth I didn't want to put it in 5th and vibrate.
    You'd think an engine with the wrong balance would vibrate regardless of how "lucky" your shift is.
    The others are right there were two different flywheels. But I'm inclined to agree that hitting the shift perfect shouldn't change that if the combo was wrong.
    First I would look at the engine mounts if they are a factory type with rubber. I have heard your description twice that I can recall...many years ago now, and both of those cars had a trashed pilot bearing (bearing not bushing). Some cars had a solid bushing too.
    It's plausible that you could have a U joint getting sloppy. Seen those cause a vibration mostly at highway speeds though.
     

    Leo

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    Yeah I was hearing Ravi Shankar and seeing a Hooka on the coffee table.
    About 1980 Bhagwan Shree Rajneesh was running a cult in Washington State where he was having wealthy yuppies fund his "vow of poverty". When it all came crashing down, the assets that he accumulated were auctioned. He had a fleet of Rolls Royce and Bentley cars. Many of them had extreme graphics like on that Mustang.

    Maybe the Mustangs owner is having his followers fund the expense of racing..........
     
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