The CZickness #XIV....It continues

[Birds Away]

Stoner holsters has some nice, affordable and quality holsters for many CZ models. I particularly liked the Ace when I had my RAMI but I'm more of an OWB guy.


IWB Holsters In-the-waistband Concealed Carry

 

[Birds Away]

To everyone who I may have offended with an earlier post about triggers, I apologize. I was merely stating what I think. I never try to tell anyone what they should think. There is a lot of discussion about people being held liable in a civil proceeding because they made their gun "deadlier" by lightening the trigger. I've read this many times but have never seen anyone cite an instance where this actually happened. Maybe it has, I don't know. One of the points I was trying to make was that it is more important to me to actually get to that point in the conversation. I want to live through the gun fight to actually be able to make the case. Dying gloriously with a gun I shoot poorly just to avoid a civil suit seems illogical to me. Because I am a below average shooter, despite thousands of rounds down range, means the difference in accuracy for me between a well tuned trigger and a stock trigger is quite high. It could very well mean the difference between life and death were it ever to come to that, God forbid. Given my skill level I need every advantage I can possibly get. To me, this is a huge advantage.
I don't shoot regularly anymore because, well, life happens and it is happening to me in spades right now. Because I don't shoot regularly I no longer carry. Although I don't like it I think it is the responsible decision to make.
When I was shooting regularly I shot about 9 to 1 in double action. Why? Because I carried on half cock and my first shot in a defensive situation was almost certainly going to be from DA. So I practiced almost exclusively in DA, manually lowering the hammer after each shot. This accomplished two important things. It made a marked improvement in the smoothness of the double action stroke on my guns and it gave me a lot of confidence in my ability to hit what I was aiming at in DA. Train like your going to fight, right?
I have great respect for many of the guys on this forum, as shooters and as men. WTB is at the top of the list in both areas. He is probably the most consistently accurate shooter I have had the pleasure of going to the range with. He is also a much smarter man than I will ever be. I would be a fool to try to tell him anything about shooting or what he should think about any topic including triggers.
So as I conclude this rambling dissertation, I want to say once again that it was not my intention to call anyone out or challenge what they believe. I was merely stating what I believe and why I believe it.
I am certain that every regular poster on this forum is a better shooter than I am. I also believe that most, if not all, are probably much smarter than I am. So I would never denigrate anyone else's opinion or beliefs. All I can offer is what I believe and why I believe it.
My five and a skosh pound DA triggers are smooth like butter and give me a big boost in confidence. YMMV. My two and a skosh pound SA triggers do the same and the short reset means I can put a lot of rounds down range in a hurry if necessary. Because he who scores first usually wins. You can look it up.
BA

 

[bjenkins]

Good morning Rick, very well written. About four years ago you were the guy i started pestering with all my CZ questions. Thanks for your patience and knowledge and you are highly respected and appreciated on this Forum!

 

[patience0830]

Us southern folk are just hospitable, even to you Canadians.

Yeah. That.

 

[churchmouse]

BA.......you have had zero effect on my decisions to have DA/SA action hand guns and get them jeweled by the best.....

 

[wtburnette]

If any of you guys need to test something out of an evening, and don't want to pay for an hour at the range, I'm on the south side of Indy.
I think I've met about everybody in this thread, at one time or another, and your all welcome.

Thank you for that kind offer sir. One of these days I'll have to come take advantage of it

For OWB, I picked-up a Desantis Speed Scabbard. I like it just fine.
I'm still searching for a suitable IWB holster. I'd prefer leather, instead of a hybrid ..... and I'd prefer off-the-shelf, rather than an expensive one. I don't mind paying $75, but I really don't want to spend $150 for a Milt Sparks (for example). The hunt for IWB continues !

I had a Speed Scabbard for my Legion and liked it a lot. It took a very long time to break in correctly, but once broken in it was a champ. Highly recommend that holster or a Galco Combat Master for anyone looking at a nice OWB leather holster that are a bit cheaper than a Milt Sparks or comparable holster. I like to stay under $100 when I buy holsters, preferably as close to $50 as possible since I don't seem to keep carrying the same guns for long.

BTW ----- I like to think of myself as prudently economic .... not cheap (at least most of the time) ! I have an expensive (to me !) Miami Classic rig for the G****s, a quite usable Uncle Mike's pocket holster for the .38 snubbie ..... and everything in-between.

BUT .... my wife is going to have me committed if I start another behind the door storage unit for holsters. This one is full, and one of my drawers is starting to fill up with the spillover. BTW .... these behind the door shoe holders make for a wonderful storage solution for holsters. You can see through the mesh, and I have them organized somewhat by caliber. For example, 9mm holsters are the 4th and 5th rows from the top !

My wife has a hanging shoe tree in her closet that has all of her holsters in it. Ironically, she has more holsters than I do...

To everyone who I may have offended with an earlier post about triggers, I apologize. I was merely stating what I think. I never try to tell anyone what they should think. There is a lot of discussion about people being held liable in a civil proceeding because they made their gun "deadlier" by lightening the trigger. I've read this many times but have never seen anyone cite an instance where this actually happened. Maybe it has, I don't know. One of the points I was trying to make was that it is more important to me to actually get to that point in the conversation. I want to live through the gun fight to actually be able to make the case. Dying gloriously with a gun I shoot poorly just to avoid a civil suit seems illogical to me. Because I am a below average shooter, despite thousands of rounds down range, means the difference in accuracy for me between a well tuned trigger and a stock trigger is quite high. It could very well mean the difference between life and death were it ever to come to that, God forbid. Given my skill level I need every advantage I can possibly get. To me, this is a huge advantage.
I don't shoot regularly anymore because, well, life happens and it is happening to me in spades right now. Because I don't shoot regularly I no longer carry. Although I don't like it I think it is the responsible decision to make.
When I was shooting regularly I shot about 9 to 1 in double action. Why? Because I carried on half cock and my first shot in a defensive situation was almost certainly going to be from DA. So I practiced almost exclusively in DA, manually lowering the hammer after each shot. This accomplished two important things. It made a marked improvement in the smoothness of the double action stroke on my guns and it gave me a lot of confidence in my ability to hit what I was aiming at in DA. Train like your going to fight, right?
I have great respect for many of the guys on this forum, as shooters and as men. WTB is at the top of the list in both areas. He is probably the most consistently accurate shooter I have had the pleasure of going to the range with. He is also a much smarter man than I will ever be. I would be a fool to try to tell him anything about shooting or what he should think about any topic including triggers.
So as I conclude this rambling dissertation, I want to say once again that it was not my intention to call anyone out or challenge what they believe. I was merely stating what I believe and why I believe it.
I am certain that every regular poster on this forum is a better shooter than I am. I also believe that most, if not all, are probably much smarter than I am. So I would never denigrate anyone else's opinion or beliefs. All I can offer is what I believe and why I believe it.
My five and a skosh pound DA triggers are smooth like butter and give me a big boost in confidence. YMMV. My two and a skosh pound SA triggers do the same and the short reset means I can put a lot of rounds down range in a hurry if necessary. Because he who scores first usually wins. You can look it up.
BA

Thank you for your kind words BA. You don't know how much that means to me. I hope you understand that I wasn't saying you shouldn't carry with a light trigger, I was just answering your question about reasons I've heard or read for why people don't. I've read a couple of self defense handgun books by Mas lately and he's in the camp that pretty much nothing should be changed mechanically on a gun. Grips are OK if you need to do that and sights as well, but he's not a proponent of trigger work on a carry gun. He bases that off of his considerable experience in this area. While I don't agree completely with that sentiment, I have to respect his opinion and keep it in the back of my mind, along with other information he discusses, like proper mindset, training, understanding the legal aftermath and more. Personally, I wouldn't carry my CZ 75 Compact because I don't practice with that gun enough to do so. A ~2lb SAO trigger is too light for me, but not for you or someone like you who trains with that trigger all the time. Again, that's IMO. I train the most often with triggers in the 4lb - 5lb range, so that's what I'm comfortable with and what I carry. I'm not one of those people who will think of someone as an idiot for doing something differently than I do, or differently from what Mas or other experts recommend. I think everyone has the ability to research, think through and choose whatever fits them the best for their method of carry, the gun they choose and what they've had done to the gun. I think as long as the gun is safe and the person carrying it trains or at least practices with it, then it's all good. I see where you're coming from with the way you carried and agree that it sounds completely reasonable. I've changed my method quite a bit in the last few years since I got into carrying. Starting with plastic guns, going to 1911's, then my Legion and now back to plastic (but at least CZ). I think I've finally found something I'm comfortable with carrying. It's not my favorite gun to shoot, but it shoots decently and carries well. I have a custom trigger in both of my P10s from HBI which lighten the trigger a bit, but more importantly eases the trigger pinch the stock trigger had. I feel confident that if some POS prosecutor tried to beat me up over the trigger, if things ever got to that point, myself and my legal team would be able to beat that aside with the reasons I have for using said trigger. I'm not that worried, but at least I've thought it through and am prepared in that regard. The same goes for you as you've thought your situation through. The problem is with someone who doesn't think it through and/or doesn't test the custom work enough.

Okay, now I'm just rambling. I'm gonna go get more

Hope everyone has a great day

 

[T-DOGG]

Us southern folk are just hospitable, even to you Canadians.

Anybody north of Indy is Canadian. Indiucky taught me this.

all in fun.

Hey look, just because I enjoy watching Hockey & The Red Green Show while drinking Labatt Blue does not make me Cana...……ahh crap.

BTW ----- I like to think of myself as prudently economic .... not cheap (at least most of the time) ! I have an expensive (to me !) Miami Classic rig for the G****s, a quite usable Uncle Mike's pocket holster for the .38 snubbie ..... and everything in-between.

BUT .... my wife is going to have me committed if I start another behind the door storage unit for holsters. This one is full, and one of my drawers is starting to fill up with the spillover. BTW .... these behind the door shoe holders make for a wonderful storage solution for holsters. You can see through the mesh, and I have them organized somewhat by caliber. For example, 9mm holsters are the 4th and 5th rows from the top !

I've been using one of these for years in my gun safe to store mags and such. I couldn't stomach spending the money that the safe companies want for their organizers. I mean, they're just storage pouches, if they'll hold shoes they'll hold other stuff just fine.

To everyone who I may have offended with an earlier post about triggers, I apologize. I was merely stating what I think. I never try to tell anyone what they should think. There is a lot of discussion about people being held liable in a civil proceeding because they made their gun "deadlier" by lightening the trigger. I've read this many times but have never seen anyone cite an instance where this actually happened. Maybe it has, I don't know. One of the points I was trying to make was that it is more important to me to actually get to that point in the conversation. I want to live through the gun fight to actually be able to make the case. Dying gloriously with a gun I shoot poorly just to avoid a civil suit seems illogical to me. Because I am a below average shooter, despite thousands of rounds down range, means the difference in accuracy for me between a well tuned trigger and a stock trigger is quite high. It could very well mean the difference between life and death were it ever to come to that, God forbid. Given my skill level I need every advantage I can possibly get. To me, this is a huge advantage.
I don't shoot regularly anymore because, well, life happens and it is happening to me in spades right now. Because I don't shoot regularly I no longer carry. Although I don't like it I think it is the responsible decision to make.
When I was shooting regularly I shot about 9 to 1 in double action. Why? Because I carried on half cock and my first shot in a defensive situation was almost certainly going to be from DA. So I practiced almost exclusively in DA, manually lowering the hammer after each shot. This accomplished two important things. It made a marked improvement in the smoothness of the double action stroke on my guns and it gave me a lot of confidence in my ability to hit what I was aiming at in DA. Train like your going to fight, right?
I have great respect for many of the guys on this forum, as shooters and as men. WTB is at the top of the list in both areas. He is probably the most consistently accurate shooter I have had the pleasure of going to the range with. He is also a much smarter man than I will ever be. I would be a fool to try to tell him anything about shooting or what he should think about any topic including triggers.
So as I conclude this rambling dissertation, I want to say once again that it was not my intention to call anyone out or challenge what they believe. I was merely stating what I believe and why I believe it.
I am certain that every regular poster on this forum is a better shooter than I am. I also believe that most, if not all, are probably much smarter than I am. So I would never denigrate anyone else's opinion or beliefs. All I can offer is what I believe and why I believe it.
My five and a skosh pound DA triggers are smooth like butter and give me a big boost in confidence. YMMV. My two and a skosh pound SA triggers do the same and the short reset means I can put a lot of rounds down range in a hurry if necessary. Because he who scores first usually wins. You can look it up.
BA

You are humble and wise beyond comparison, and a better shot than you give yourself credit, don't sell yourself short. We all have different views on our guns and what we do with or to them. There's nothing wrong with modifying a gun at all. The only thing wrong is not verifying the modifications work properly. Anyone who has tinkered with anything mechanical and modified it from original form knows this, and if not, should know this. I think you are absolutely spot on in regards to keeping triggers similar. I have been running FN handguns for a little bit and was running Glocks before that. I also picked up an M&P 2.0 that has a different shaped trigger with a pull and travel that are completely different than my others. I love the gun, so I put an Apex trigger kit in it that moved the trigger further forward within the trigger guard and made the trigger closer in shape to the style I prefer. Why does this matter? I recently did a handgun training class where I switched from my FN 509 to the M&P (with stock trigger) halfway through the class. Man did that screw me up. When I went to engage targets with the M&P, the trigger was nowhere near where I anticipated it to be. I yanked the trigger so bad it felt uncomfortable, so as a result I was less accurate and felt less in control of my gun. I keep my triggers in my rifles similar also, because I train with them as well. If I ever need to grab any one of them and use them for a self defense situation I want to reduce the variables that I have control of.

I saw mentioned something about removing a firing pin block? Older design semi-autos did not have a firing pin block and they still functioned fine, even to this day guns are being made without them, hello 70 series 1911 (which plenty of 1911 manufacturers are still using). I totally get the keeping guns stock aspect though, I really do. To each their own, I will not knock anyone for running stock (and if I did in the past I'm sorry) and I will not knock anyone for modifying a gun also, again assuming they make sure it still works properly.

Good morning Rick, very well written. About four years ago you were the guy i started pestering with all my CZ questions. Thanks for your patience and knowledge and you are highly respected and appreciated on this Forum!

Hi Barry, good to see you on here sir!

 

[wtburnette]

I have to state how much I value and depend on the advice and recommendations from the people in this group. BA, Losey and churchmouse have made me realize just how absolutely top notch handguns can be. I am a relative noob when it comes to firearms and it's the information provided by this group that has given me the understanding I have and the confidence to carry and believe I have at least some idea of what I'm doing. I'm always amazed and a little awed at the generosity and knowledge this group demonstrates on a daily basis and am honored to be a part of the group. Getting together with you guys to shoot guns, or just sit and shoot the breeze are always the highlight of my day (week or month). You guys are all a bunch of good eggs and I'm proud to know you all.

*Sniff*

Okay, back to the gun talk...

 

[gmcttr]

... I don't mind paying $75, but I really don't want to spend $150 for a Milt Sparks (for example). The hunt for IWB continues !

May or may not be of interest to you for the RAMI...https://www.wrightleatherworks.com/collections/iwb-holsters/products/banshee-iwb-holster

 

[ChrisK]

I can tell you that When Mas carries a S&W revolver it has been worked on by Denny at Sand Burr... As for you Rick, you are cutting yourself a little short. You are a better shot than a lot of people I know. I had this discussion with Mas when I attended MAG 40 and he just believes that a 2 lb. trigger is not the best way to go.

 

[MindfulMan]

Thanks BA, and gmcttr for the holster links.
I'll check them out !

 

[Benp]

I understand how to operate a firearm safely, but when it comes to the inner workings of a firearm that is different for me. I don't want to make any modifications without knowing that its ok to do so.I appreciate all of the commentary because I get to hear different sides and in all cases it requires me to consider the arguments and think about them for myself. I'm learning a great deal from you all and I appreciate it.

 

[mcapo]

May or may not be of interest to you for the RAMI...https://www.wrightleatherworks.com/collections/iwb-holsters/products/banshee-iwb-holster

Hmmm...that looks interesting.....

About triggers - the decision to carry is all about risk analysis. That risk analysis involves many risk criteria from the actual risk of facing a justifiable shooting decision to litigation risks to to risk of an AD to worrying about if your pants will fall off while IWB a 500 SW. It is our personal responsibilities to know the risks surround CCW, consider them and make an informed decision. For me the bottom line in a CCW trigger, is having a trigger heavy enough that adrenaline doesn't make it a hair trigger but light enough that you will WANT to train with it regularly. For some that may be 2 pounds; others it might be 8.

My father, as civilian, was involved in a justifiable self defense shooting. He said the decision to fire was a slow motion mental process but the actual physical pulling of the trigger (twice) didn't even register in his mind (and he was carrying a gun with crappy trigger). No charges were filed criminally though the family of the scumbag filed a civil suit which they, of course, lost.

Oh and if Birds Away every says anything about guns or triggers that I disagree with, I will most likely reevaluate MY position!!! Unless he starts degrading external 1911 extractors like some people....

 

[churchmouse]

I can tell you that When Mas carries a S&W revolver it has been worked on by Denny at Sand Burr... As for you Rick, you are cutting yourself a little short. You are a better shot than a lot of people I know. I had this discussion with Mas when I attended MAG 40 and he just believes that a 2 lb. trigger is not the best way to go.

Not for the average low practice very casual shooter.
If you could get some actual numbers of those who own/carry that have never even shot the gun it would be eye opening for sure. Those folks should not have a lightened trigger. Just to many things to go south in a big hurry.

I have let people that I know are good shooters handle/run my guns and a few have put one in the floor due to a very crisp/light trigger. In defense of them several were striker action carry. I do not like striker actions as they are mushy by the nature of the design. If that is all I ran then I would most likely be fairly proficient with the design but I do not.

Pick a platform. Become very familiar with it. 2nd nature muscle memory. The ability to point it up and use it accurately.
Yes, this takes time and funding. It is also part of being a responsible gun owner. It is hard enough to use in a SD situation. Try coming out of a dead sleep, finding your nightstand piece, getting it in hand and under control while also trying to clear your eyes and mind from the fog of deep sleep. Every step in that process that you can do with out focus as in muscle memory/2nd nature reduces the possibility you will do something seriously wrong.

Practice practice practice. In this I am terribly remiss myself due to life throwing curve balls at me. I never could hit a curve ball very well.

 

[Trigger Time]

Not for the average low practice very casual shooter.
If you could get some actual numbers of those who own/carry that have never even shot the gun it would be eye opening for sure. Those folks should not have a lightened trigger. Just to many things to go south in a big hurry.

I have let people that I know are good shooters handle/run my guns and a few have put one in the floor due to a very crisp/light trigger. In defense of them several were striker action carry. I do not like striker actions as they are mushy by the nature of the design. If that is all I ran then I would most likely be fairly proficient with the design but I do not.

Pick a platform. Become very familiar with it. 2nd nature muscle memory. The ability to point it up and use it accurately.
Yes, this takes time and funding. It is also part of being a responsible gun owner. It is hard enough to use in a SD situation. Try coming out of a dead sleep, finding your nightstand piece, getting it in hand and under control while also trying to clear your eyes and mind from the fog of deep sleep. Every step in that process that you can do with out focus as in muscle memory/2nd nature reduces the possibility you will do something seriously wrong.

Practice practice practice. In this I am terribly remiss myself due to life throwing curve balls at me. I never could hit a curve ball very well.

Maybe good shooters but not safe shooters if their fingers were on the trigger pointed at the floor

What I ask people with more gun internals experience than me about when discussing a carry pistol trigger and if it would be good for carry (or the reason I ask that) is mainly for reliability. I've experienced several aftermarket triggers that fail or break and repeatedly. Not the confidence booster you need if your pulling out your pistol in a gun fight.
I actualy use trigger reset, a phrase some people might think is me (trigger time) getting ready for the next meal coarse.
And I've also like others had a a hair trigger and short reset surprise me with a second shot (down range). Also not what I personaly want in MY carry gun but like BA also said if you practice enough as you should with your carry gun (I do, as croy can attest to) then you will get used to it.

Anyways back to my original thought before I seen a squirrel. It truly truly amazes me that people carry guns and do not get any range time at a minimum of 2 times a year and thats still sad but health and others things yeah I get it. But come on people (not people here I hope), you need to make sure your gun even works.
Also yes you are right CM about the dead sleep part too. I've set alarms before and woke up to practice that very scenario with my forearms. My wife hates it!!! Too ****ing bad. Shes used to crazy by now. I'm not what I used to be. I have health issues and stuff that are disadvantages so I have to give myself every advantage that i can get. Practice and training and deffinately like you said familiarity with your weapon systems is key! Even clearing malfunctions in the light of day that I know most people dont do but also at night in the dark and being able to feel it or what if you have nerve damage and partial paralysis and dont have all your feeling? That's something only training can overcome and work around. You must run the scenario to see how you will fail and you must train to failure and then repeat to overcome the failure or you will never learn.
I used to never hear people outside of the military talk about muscle memory. Now everyone says it. They think a couple thousand rounds is gonna give them muscle memory. Hell it takes a couple thousand rounds just to start to get familiar with your gun let alone actualy develope solid skills that you want to develope into muscle memory. Also introducing stress totaly changes the game and makes most peoples brains go to **** unless they are wired different or prepare for the dump.
I dont shoot near as much as I want to now either but dry fore practice at home is free and I do that every day and it helps tremendously. Also developes stamina. I've noticed my ending range session shooting accuracy doesnt dip off like it used to because of fatigue as much. I'll never be able to stop it due to health issues but I can get it good enough to last me through a gun fight I hope. That's the end goal. This isnt a job for most of us, this is just about living

 

[KJQ6945]

Well said TT. A light trigger will show you who follows the four rules. I've never had anybody touch off a live round yet, but I've heard the hammer drop on an empty gun numerous times, before they were on target. I tell them to check the trigger out on this one before I hand them one of my guns that has been worked over, I'll never let somebody shoot it without dry firing first.

I love my light triggers, but, they aren't for everyone.

 

[KJQ6945]

Everybody have a good Sunday?

 

[churchmouse]

Everybody have a good Sunday?

Yes. Very good.

 

[Hopper]

Everybody have a good Sunday?

Great weekend all the way around, and hope yours and everyone else's was too! Got to finally attend the Dayton Air Show with my BIL yesterday, which is something I've been wanting to do for far too long. Excellent time spent watching some unbelievably talented pilots, and some really neat aircraft to see up-close on the tarmac area. Got to run the SR1911 9mm Officer today, and my son put his CZ Compact through its paces with the new recoil spring. Wish I could hit the rewind button and do this weekend all over again!

 

[KJQ6945]

Great weekend all the way around, and hope yours and everyone else's was too! Got to finally attend the Dayton Air Show with my BIL yesterday, which is something I've been wanting to do for far too long. Excellent time spent watching some unbelievably talented pilots, and some really neat aircraft to see up-close on the tarmac area. Got to run the SR1911 9mm Officer today, and my son put his CZ Compact through its paces with the new recoil spring. Wish I could hit the rewind button and do this weekend all over again!

You can always rewind it and replay it, at least until Alzheimer's gets us all. But then we won't know we have it.

Glad you had had a great weekend, I've been to the museum, but the air show is on my bucket list.