Tactical Reload vs. Reload w/Retention

[AD Marc]

Now was that so damn hard. Still not a real answer from you though, but nothing like sliding the discussion off to a Video on Youtube when one cannot supply an answer themselves.

Well, Paul will basically be saying the same things I have been writing, but I understand some of us learn differently and your comprehension may be enhanced by the video.

 

[the1kidd03]

Bump


LOL

 

[indyjoe]

In battery: how did you identify this? was it though visual reference? slap rack probably solves it.
out of battery: How did you identify this? you just slammed an out of spec cartridge into your gun and locked it up. Doesn't slap rack also solve this and do it better?
Stove pipe: how how did you identify this? Doesn't tap rack also solve this?

You can see where i'm going with this. There's a lot of room to simplify.

Absolutely. I'm going to have to try some of the drill done in a non-diagnostic way and see what I think. The videos do make sense for typical operation.

That being said. I would most likely still not rack after tactical reload. As that would be done in an non-emergency situation.

 

[David Rose]

In the beginning of this thread there was a distinction between reactive and voluntary actions that we seem to have lost along the way. Slide lock reloads and tac reloads are apples and oranges(that ones for you NIFT).

 

[OEF5]

Right what we are talking about now is WHY OH WHY you would slide the rack on a weapon that has just been fired when you are just putting a full mag in....


Here lets try this again since I must be grouped in with Jeremy and am unable to learn or have an open mind, I'm trying to have an open mind and understand why it's a good idea.

Weapon: 92FS
Mags: 3 fully loaded (45 rounds for those that can do math)
Weapon Status: 1 15 round magazine loaded in the the mag well, weapon has been charged, press check done a round is in the chamber, the saftey has been put on, hammer is down.
Sit Rep: Clearning a house with unknown bad guys

I walk into said house and clear room one, as I leave room one Bad guy comes out of a door on the right hand side of the hallway and points a weapon at me. We exchange fire, maybe 7 to 10 shots I'm not sure, weapon is still on fire and the hammer is back. I drop the magazine in it and replace it with a full magazine, I now have 16 rounds.


AD's method...
I walk into said house and clear room one, as I leave the room one bad guy comes out of the door on the righ hand side of the hallway and points a weapon at me. We exchange fire, maybe 7 to 10 shots I'm not sure, weapon is still on fire and the hammer is back. I drop and retain the magazine and replace it with a fresh magazine, rack the slide ejecting a live round onto the ground.

Now sir that is the point we are contesting...the same situation yours with the additional step, why?

In that setup there isn't any malfunctions, there are not stove pipes, the weapon is 100% good to go for the fight at all times. Why the slide rack?

I'm not performing a malfunctions drill, the only thing I'm doing is putting a live round on the ground and giving the next bad guy an extra second to take a shot at me while I'm jacking with my weapon instead of putting it back on target.


If your sole purpose is to train muscle memory on racking the slide on a reload to ensure that there is always a live round in the weapon I don't get it. If you want to train weapon manipulation to learn how to do a malfunction drill GREAT!!! load mags for your students and put snap caps in that don't go bang...that will get them into doing the drill right. In my training if I have to do a malfunction drill I'm not going to keep that mag, I don't know if the round was bad, bad feed lips on the mag, no clue why. I'll take the fastest and most common problem out of the equation with a new fresh mag and drop the one that was in a bad gun and not worry about it.

Even if I don't have the super spider senses of the other guys if the weapon doesn't go bang I'm going to work the problem from cover, in this case pistol drop the mag, insert a new one, rack and observe the chamber to ensure that the round goes in and BANG!

 

[jeremy]

Well, Paul will basically be saying the same things I have been writing, but I understand some of us learn differently and your comprehension may be enhanced by the video.

I know Paul's thoughts on this subject as we had several discussions about it, equally aggravating for each of us I am sure. I was wondering if you could sustain your own end of the discussion...

 

[rhino]

At risk of this being just more of my crazy talk, seems to me . . .

. . . that if you have the time and opportunity to do a "tactical reload" that you also probably have time to check your weapon to make sure the chamber is loaded if you care to do so. If it's not, you can rack the slide. If it is, you make sure it returns to battery, that the mag is seated, and go on about whatever business is most pressing.

 

[OEF5]

At risk of this being just more of my crazy talk, seems to me . . .

. . . that if you have the time and opportunity to do a "tactical reload" that you also probably have time to check your weapon to make sure the chamber is loaded if you care to do so. If it's not, you can rack the slide. If it is, you make sure it returns to battery, that the mag is seated, and go on about whatever business is most pressing.

I stated that same thing earlier but it's not been addressed.

I'm not trying to bash the guy, or his training, I just want to understand the purpose...if it's something that I can use and learn and why it's important I'm all open for it.

 

[esrice]

. . . that if you have the time and opportunity to do a "tactical reload" that you also probably have time to check your weapon to make sure the chamber is loaded if you care to do so. If it's not, you can rack the slide. If it is, you make sure it returns to battery, that the mag is seated, and go on about whatever business is most pressing.

From what I know of total non-diagnostic manipulation, it seeks to find just one or two manipulations that work "ok" 99% of the time, even if there are some minor downsides, or other manipulations that might work better for that narrow circumstance.

Therefore EVERY time a new magazine is inserted the slide is run. EVERY time.

Speed/emergency reload? Run the slide.
Tactical reload? Run the slide.
Administrative reload? Run the slide.
Malf clearance reload? Run the slide.

Therefore the answer to various questions is always the same-- run the slide.

Tactical Response is well known for teaching non-diagnostic manipulations. Magpul Dynamics is on the other end of the spectrum teaching "problem solving" through various "if this, then that" routines.

 

[OEF5]

From what I know of total non-diagnostic manipulation, it seeks to find just one or two manipulations that work "ok" 99% of the time, even if there are some minor downsides, or other manipulations that might work better for that narrow circumstance.

Therefore EVERY time a new magazine is inserted the slide is run. EVERY time.

Speed/emergency reload? Run the slide.
Tactical reload? Run the slide.
Administrative reload? Run the slide.
Malf clearance reload? Run the slide.

Therefore the answer to various questions is always the same-- run the slide.

Tactical Response is well known for teaching non-diagnostic manipulations. Magpul Dynamics is on the other end of the spectrum teaching "problem solving" through various "if this, then that" routines.

Now Evan you just went a answered the question!!!

That's all I wanted to know! see that was pretty easy, it's not a method for me....I'm the problem solve kinda guy....

Thanks for clearing it up in this way.

 

[David Rose]

The tac reload is by its nature diagnostic so attempts to make it reflexive ( I know that's not the right term but it's the most universal term i can think of) seem like kind of a waste.

 

[rhino]

I stated that same thing earlier but it's not been addressed.

I missed that and probably a lot of other stuff here.

From what I know of total non-diagnostic manipulation, it seeks to find just one or two manipulations that work "ok" 99% of the time, even if there are some minor downsides, or other manipulations that might work better for that narrow circumstance.

Therefore EVERY time a new magazine is inserted the slide is run. EVERY time.

I suppose that's okay if you have a 9mm with lots of bullets available. I'm not convinced that it's such a great idea if you're packing an officer's acp - sized 1911. If you do that every time, you're losing 17% or 14% of the ammunition in your magazine for 6 and 7 round magazines, respectively.

As Mr. Rose suggests below, so-called "tactical reloads" may not be a good fit for the one-size-fits all solutions. As I understand it, it's not something you'd want to do under immense stress. If you have time and opportunity to do a tactical reload, you have time to be more methodical.

The tac reload is by its nature diagnostic so attempts to make it reflexive ( I know that's not the right term but it's the most universal term i can think of) seem like kind of a waste.

 

[AD Marc]

From what I know of total non-diagnostic manipulation, it seeks to find just one or two manipulations that work "ok" 99% of the time, even if there are some minor downsides, or other manipulations that might work better for that narrow circumstance.

Therefore EVERY time a new magazine is inserted the slide is run. EVERY time.

Speed/emergency reload? Run the slide.
Tactical reload? Run the slide.
Administrative reload? Run the slide.
Malf clearance reload? Run the slide.

Therefore the answer to various questions is always the same-- run the slide.

Tactical Response is well known for teaching non-diagnostic manipulations. Magpul Dynamics is on the other end of the spectrum teaching "problem solving" through various "if this, then that" routines.

Good way to break it down. The way i look at it, If i can ingrain weapon manipulations into my mid brain by simplifying a set of movements and ingraining them through repeated use, my higher brain functions can be focusing on more pressing matters related to the unfolding situation.

 

[indyjoe]

Good way to break it down. The way i look at it, If i can ingrain weapon manipulations into my mid brain by simplifying a set of movements and ingraining them through repeated use, my higher brain functions can be focusing on more pressing matters related to the unfolding situation.

I'm agreeing and following that, with the exception of the Tactical Reload. If I am still behind my OODA loop, perhaps it isn't time to tactically reload just yet.

 

[AD Marc]

I'm agreeing and following that, with the exception of the Tactical Reload. If I am still behind my OODA loop, perhaps it isn't time to tactically reload just yet.

I'll tell you, to the degree i've practiced malfunction reductions and emergency reloads, It's difficult to NOT run the slide when i smack the bottom of the mag. I have to make a conscious effort to not do it. Same thing happens if the slide on my Glock slams home while inserting a mag on an emergency reload (not uncommon with glocks, m&p's, H&K's and others). Top round goes on the ground. Not a big deal. Certainly better that switching your concentration to your gun when you could be doing more important things and a small price to pay to be sure you picked up a round.

 

[David Rose]

That my friend is what some would refer to as a training scar.

 

[AD Marc]

That my friend is what some would refer to as a training scar.

I would disagree. In fact, i would say if it's not an automatic movement, you probably haven't trained it enough. If you're assessing your gun to see if your slide went forward this time, you're not assessing other things. Furthermore, you are disrupting your own OODA loop. It is also possible you could have caused the slide to go forward before seating the magazine, and therefore have an empty chamber.

Run the slide, every time. The procedure is smack-rack-assess, not smack-assess-rack-assess.

 

[esrice]

If I am still behind my OODA loop, perhaps it isn't time to tactically reload just yet.

If you're performing a tactical reload you should be in the Observe phase.

 

[AD Marc]

If you're performing a tactical reload you should be in the Observe phase.

You may be observing your surroundings, but there is a separate OODA loop for every sensory input, that includes any diagnostic action you are performing on your firearm.

Have i mentioned that human beings generally suck at multitasking?

 

[esrice]

You may be observing your surroundings, but there is a separate OODA loop for every sensory input, that includes any diagnostic action you are performing on your firearm.

True. I was speaking to the OODA loops related to the "event" itself, of which I assumed indyjoe was also speaking. I could be wrong.