Tactical Reload vs. Reload w/Retention

[jeremy]

I wish the term "lull in the action" and similar concepts would go away. Time is something that you don't know you have until it has already passed. A lull in the action is something we determine in hindsight.

You fight, you assess the effectiveness of your fighting, you scan for other threats, then you top off your gun so you're ready to fight again. That fight can find you again at any moment, so you need to get your gun up as quickly as possible.

The way we teach the proactive reload is to simply access the spare magazine, then reload as usual, dumping the partial mag on the ground, inserting the fresh magazine, then running the slide to assure there is a round in the chamber. Then, if possible, you can recover the partial magazine. If you can't, those rounds probably won't matter in the context of a civillian shooting. If you can, you are doing it with a full gun in your hand that is ready to fight.

Otherwise, Paul's method is good.

The "tactical" reload is simply an invitation to drop both magazines as your dexterity may be impaired by adrenaline, injury, slippery hands or any other number of reasons.

What term would you prefer to use instead of a Lull in the Action?!

From my experience, that is the best term/phase I can think of to describe the event. Every Battle I have ever been in has Lulls in the Action. I have yet to see a Battle/Gunfight that does not.

Another thing I do not understand is why work the slide to ensure there is a round in the Chamber if you did not take the weapon to slide/bolt lock?! You are changing mags on a partial mag, the only reason you are changing it is to top off your ammo in the weapon. To me it is both an unneeded and wasted step.

But, then again WTF do I know. I am just a dumb mechanic...

 

[AD Marc]

...varying degrees of the same issue. understood I went to the end of the spectrum.

hard to have a cure all for all scenarios. eg if your reload plan is to always over-hand rack the slide, what if your WH is bloody, injured etc? maybe it becomes better to hit the slide release. But if it's never practiced because "it's a fine motor skill"....

All tools in the toolbox...

-rvb

Good example. My default is an overhand rack, my secondary is racking off the beltline. Two robust, gross motor manipulations that work in almost every contingency, on almost any handgun. This reduces the number of options and therefore speeds reaction time. If your gun is too bloody or hand too weak for an overhand rack to work, the slide stop will probably be a fruitless effort and you should move on to the beltline.

 

[OEF5]

My problem with all of this is that I've been trained not to retain a mag at all.

If the gun stopped working, for whatever reason, you go into imidate action. That includes dropping the magazine, not thinking hmmm does this have rounds in it or not. When I shot with the SEAL's, don't bash here, they train that any mag that goes out of the gun is a DEAD EMPTY mag, it hits the dirt and you don't worry about it. You either leave them or police them after the fight is over.

I also agree with Jeremy that when behind cover yes this is the way to top it off, I still don't know if I would keep the mag or not at that point either.

I most def don't want to put it back into a "live" mag puch to where in the heat of things I'm putting it into my gun under the assumption that it's a full mag and run the gun dry on 3 shots....that would be the SUCK in a gun fight.

 

[esrice]

dumping the partial mag on the ground, inserting the fresh magazine, . . . . . Then, if possible, you can recover the partial magazine.

I feel like this is jumping too quickly to a "worse case scenario", when there is still a chance that a tactical reload works.

If, when I have time and opportunity, I perform a tactical reload by switching the magazines in my hand, then fine. But if, due to violent shaking or bloody slippery hands, I drop one of the magazines, then I'm left being right where you advocate anyway-- with a partial mag on the ground. And because I'm not doing this on a time crunch, I don't feel like anything is lost going from Plan A to Plan B.

Now if you're saying that its likely to drop both magazines due to adrenaline or slippery hands, and therefore advocate complete removal and insertion, I can kinda see that. Even then though you would just get down and pick up a mag as quickly as possible and re-insert (certainly not ideal but you do whatcha gotta do).

 

[AD Marc]

What term would you prefer to use instead of a Lull in the Action?!

From my experience, that is the best term/phase I can think of to describe the event. Every Battle I have ever been in has Lulls in the Action. I have yet to see a Battle/Gunfight that does not.

Another thing I do not understand is why work the slide to ensure there is a round in the Chamber if you did not take the weapon to slide/bolt lock?! You are changing mags on a partial mag, the only reason you are changing it is to top off your ammo in the weapon. To me it is both an unneeded and wasted step.

But, then again WTF do I know. I am just a dumb mechanic...

Not a stupid question at all

I don't recommend replacing the term, I recommend forgetting the concept as it pertains to "when i have time to do x in a gunfight". We won't know that there is a lull in the action until it has already happened, so we don't want to dawdle assuming that we have all the time in the world when in reality, more threats could be presenting themselves any second. So, yes, all fights have lulls in the action, but can you tell me how long it will be and when, and in what manner it will cease to be a lull until after it has already happened?

As far as running the slide, i'm sure in your experience with shooting you have had instances where the slide lock failed to lock the slide back on an empty magazine. Even if you haven't, I see it happen quite frequently across all makes and models when stress is introduced, odd shooting positions are used, grips get sloppy for any number of reasons, or guns are simply run to the point where that part fails to do its job. We want to assure that there is a round in the chamber. Racking the slide after inserting a fresh magazine accomplishes this, and it also uses the same "muscle memory" (smack, rack) we try to build every other time we seat a magazine, either during an emergency reload or malfunction reduction. Loosing that one round isn't likely to be detrimental in a fight. Getting a click instead of a bang is very likely to be detrimental.

 

[AD Marc]

I feel like this is jumping too quickly to a "worse case scenario", when there is still a chance that a tactical reload works.

If, when I have time and opportunity, I perform a tactical reload by switching the magazines in my hand, then fine. But if, due to violent shaking or bloody slippery hands, I drop one of the magazines, then I'm left being right where you advocate anyway-- with a partial mag on the ground. And because I'm not doing this on a time crunch, I don't feel like anything is lost going from Plan A to Plan B.

Now if you're saying that its likely to drop both magazines due to adrenaline or slippery hands, and therefore advocate complete removal and insertion, I can kinda see that. Even then though you would just get down and pick up a mag as quickly as possible and re-insert (certainly not ideal but you do whatcha gotta do).

Yes, what I am saying is that it is likely you will drop both. I see this frequently when people try to perform manipulations with two magazines or a magazine and a flashlight in the same hand. By dividing the purchase they have between two objects, they tend to end up with insufficient purchase on either. When people fumble under stress, they tend to fumble bad. One mag starts to slip, they try to catch it and both go to the ground. The last place you want to be is bending down picking up stuff with an essentially empty gun if/when the fight goes hot again. Remember, that is what is actually the worst case scenario, and that is what we are trying to avoid by robustly manipulating our weapons.

And once again, you don't know if you're doing this in a time crunch or not. Those military trained MS13 gangsters you just shot it out with could be rushing cover while you're putzing around during what you think is a lull in the action.

 

[jeremy]

Not a stupid question at all

I don't recommend replacing the term, I recommend forgetting the concept as it pertains to "when i have time to do x in a gunfight". We won't know that there is a lull in the action until it has already happened, so we don't want to dawdle assuming that we have all the time in the world when in reality, more threats could be presenting themselves any second. So, yes, all fights have lulls in the action, but can you tell me how long it will be and when, and in what manner it will cease to be a lull until after it has already happened?

Yes you can usually learn when to anticipate the lulls in action. How long they will last is something I have not learned, or met anyone who has yet...

As far as running the slide, i'm sure in your experience with shooting you have had instances where the slide lock failed to lock the slide back on an empty magazine. Even if you haven't, I see it happen quite frequently across all makes and models when stress is introduced, odd shooting positions are used, grips get sloppy for any number of reasons, or guns are simply run to the point where that part fails to do its job. We want to assure that there is a round in the chamber. Racking the slide after inserting a fresh magazine accomplishes this, and it also uses the same "muscle memory" (smack, rack) we try to build every other time we seat a magazine, either during an emergency reload or malfunction reduction. Loosing that one round isn't likely to be detrimental in a fight. Getting a click instead of a bang is very likely to be detrimental.

The only Weapons I have had in Combat that have not achieved slide lock in Combat, were weapons that were designed to not lock the slides. But the example you gave was to change out a partial mag, not that you had shot the weapon to empty.

Back to my point, you are teaching persons to remove a Mag that they KNOW is a partial mag and teaching them to rack the slide why?!

You already know there is a round in the chamber. The only reason you are changing the mag is to top off the weapons ammo. You mention Speed and time in the earlier paragraph, but then you add a step to extend the amount of time the weapon is out of battery.

 

[jeremy]

Yes, what I am saying is that it is likely you will drop both. I see this frequently when people try to perform manipulations with two magazines or a magazine and a flashlight in the same hand. By dividing the purchase they have between two objects, they tend to end up with insufficient purchase on either. When people fumble under stress, they tend to fumble bad. One mag starts to slip, they try to catch it and both go to the ground. The last place you want to be is bending down picking up stuff with an essentially empty gun if/when the fight goes hot again. Remember, that is what is actually the worst case scenario, and that is what we are trying to avoid by robustly manipulating our weapons.

And once again, you don't know if you're doing this in a time crunch or not. Those military trained MS13 gangsters you just shot it out with could be rushing cover while you're putzing around during what you think is a lull in the action.

I guess I don't understand why anyone would teach someone to change mags in this fashion. Drop your mag with one hand letting it hit the ground, while retrieving and inserting the full mag. Once I eject a Mag from the Weapon, it is on the ground until the fight is done. Partial or empty. No trying to stuff it back into the mag pouch, no trying to fumble it into a Dump Pouch, no shoving it in a Cargo Pocket. If it is coming out of the weapon, then it is useless to the current events. I'll police it up, maybe, when I have time...

 

[SmileDocHill]

This post made me think of something from the distant past.
I took a team to wrestling camp once at the University of Iowa, and in one session Royce Alger was teaching technique. He gave a speech about how to win a state title in the last period when down by one point. The scenario was the guy that was ahead shoots and grabs a leg and plans to hold on and let the clock run out. Royce demonstrates the technique and then asks if there are questions before having everyone try it. A kids sticks his hand up and and says I don't have the balance to do that move. Royce looks right at him, and eveyone leans in to hear what he has to say. "Then it won't matter and you won't be in the state finals."

If any of us don't have the skills and the ability to do what is necessary it won't really matter. The only one size fits all solution or technique is doing what is required to prevail.

I like the Clint Smith view of shoot until I win, or until the gun is empty.

I LOVE that story/example! There are very applicable concepts packed into that story. Thanks.

 

[AD Marc]

Yes you can usually learn when to anticipate the lulls in action. How long they will last is something I have not learned, or met anyone who has yet...

The only Weapons I have had in Combat that have not achieved slide lock in Combat, were weapons that were designed to not lock the slides. But the example you gave was to change out a partial mag, not that you had shot the weapon to empty.

Back to my point, you are teaching persons to remove a Mag that they KNOW is a partial mag and teaching them to rack the slide why?!

You already know there is a round in the chamber. The only reason you are changing the mag is to top off the weapons ammo. You mention Speed and time in the earlier paragraph, but then you add a step to extend the amount of time the weapon is out of battery.

You aren't going to have any concept of how many rounds you fired, and yes, i frequently see guns fail to lock the slide back on an empty magazine.

As far as speed, racking the slide is a fraction of a second and it ensures your chamber is loaded. Most people who have practiced malfunction reductions repeatedly will automatically rack the slide after seating a magazine regardless.

 

[jeremy]

You aren't going to have any concept of how many rounds you fired, and yes, i frequently see guns fail to lock the slide back on an empty magazine.

I generally have an Idea how many rounds are in my weapon. It is not really that hard of a thing to keep track of.

As far as speed, racking the slide is a fraction of a second and it ensures your chamber is loaded. Most people who have practiced malfunction reductions repeatedly will automatically rack the slide after seating a magazine regardless.

Really?!
That is your explanation?!

As I stated earlier, you brought up you have no idea how much time you have to perform the reload. So why are you including an extra time consuming step. You are changing out a Partial Mag to top off the weapon. You have not ran the weapon empty. Why have a slide action?!

 

[AD Marc]

I generally have an Idea how many rounds are in my weapon. It is not really that hard of a thing to keep track of.

Really?!
That is your explanation?!

As I stated earlier, you brought up you have no idea how much time you have to perform the reload. So why are you including an extra time consuming step. You are changing out a Partial Mag to top off the weapon. You have not ran the weapon empty. Why have a slide action?!

Jeremy, if you're going to dismiss the premise outright, then there's really no sense arguing it with you. Do what works for you.

 

[esrice]

Really?!
That is your explanation?!

Total non-diagnostic manipulation is one way to do things. There can certainly be arguments for and against such techniques.

 

[jeremy]

Jeremy, if you're going to dismiss the premise outright, then there's really no sense arguing it with you. Do what works for you.

I just do not understand the why of it. You argue about not having enough time earlier in the thread, then you add time consuming steps to the process. I could understand if you had taken the Weapon to empty and racking the slide. I just don't get racking the slide on a Partial Mag reload.

To me it is like some of the persons that teach to rotate the Carbine in route to the next cover so they can observe if the Bolt is a Slide lock or not seated fully...

 

[OEF5]

Jeremy, if you're going to dismiss the premise outright, then there's really no sense arguing it with you. Do what works for you.

AD not to jump on, but I think you are missing the point...He's asked twice and I'd like to know since you are an instructor.

In the specific situation that is being talked about this is not an EMPTY gun, you have a pause...you are putting a fresh mag in to top off the weapon. In my case a G22, so I've fired X number of rounds at bad guys, I don't know if I'm going to have to shoot more bad guys or not, I put a fresh mag in. That puts me back to 16 rounds, if I do as you instruct I'll be at 15 rounds.

In this situation it's not a malfunction drill, it's not a FRESH load to put the weapon into battery, it's already there, so why the additional rack?

 

[jeremy]

Total non-diagnostic manipulation is one way to do things. There can certainly be arguments for and against such techniques.

I just have a problem understanding why you would add a step/manipulation when you know the weapon is not empty.

 

[AD Marc]

Honestly, i've seen enough use of force reports where people think they fired 4 rounds and actually fired 15 to believe that keeping track of the ammunition you fire in a gunfight isn't likely, but if you are sure you can do it, then buy all means, feel free to bet your life on there being a round in the chamber. For my life, I'm willing to loose a round to be sure.

 

[jeremy]

Honestly, i've seen enough use of force reports where people think they fired 4 rounds and actually fired 15 to believe that keeping track of the ammunition you fire in a gunfight isn't likely, but if you are sure you can do it, then buy all means, feel free to bet your life on there being a round in the chamber. For my life, I'm willing to loose a round to be sure.

I never bet my life.

Have you ever been in a battle or a gunfight?!

It is not that hard to know whether I have dumped a Mag or if I am at half or almost full.

I like how you have shifted away from time is immeasurable quantity to My Life is important isn't yours stance can you not come up with a valid reason/defense of the action you teach?!

 

[David Rose]

There is such a thing as too robust a tool, and tool boxes can be too full.

 

[AD Marc]

There is such a thing as too robust a tool, and tool boxes can be too full.

Tool boxes can be too full. The more options we give ourselves, the more time it takes to select the appropriate action. This is why i limit the choices to a small number of robust manipulations.

Which is more simple:

Model 1:
reactive reload: Ditch the old mag slap in a fresh mag, hit slide release
proactive reload: retain the old mag, slap in a fresh mag and assume we're good to go
click instead of bang: slap the mag and run the slide

Model 2 (the robust model)
Reactive reload: Ditch the old mag slap in a fresh mag, run the slide
proactive reload: Ditch the old mag slap in a fresh mag run the slide
click instead of bang: Slap the mag and run the slide

One has 3 separate movements to train your brain and body to perform subconsciously, one has one movement (slap, rack) to train your brain and body to perform subconsciously and does not require you to visually diagnose problems with the gun.