Tactical Reload vs. Reload w/Retention

[Sureshot129]

As expected this thread delivers. I'm going to have to try a running retention reload on the treadmill.

 

[David Rose]

I don't even think you have to pick just one. Just understand the strengths and weaknesses and put the tools in the toolbox...

-rvb

I said pick one because:

1. Hick's Law
2. Training time

 

[David Rose]

Clint Smith on the "tactical" (whatever that is) reload.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MbUgANV_yL4

I agree with Clint: the "tactical" reload has extremely limited viable application, except, perhaps, for competitive shooting that seems to be enamored with the "tacti-cool" reload and requires such in many stages.

The application that I like for the "tactical" reload is as stripper magazine for loading from empty at the "Load and make ready" command before the start of a stage. Insert the stripper mag., chamber a round, remove the stripper mag. and replace with a full mag via the "tactical" reload.

I think the history of this gets a little twisted. The tac guys brought the "tac reload" to their own competition(IDPA). The gamers developed the "reload with retention" to win the tac guys competition. Then the tac guys decided the whole subject was too gamey and quit. This cycle will repeat for as long as someone keeps score.

 

[esrice]

Is that kid even old enough to own a handgun?

Its like Travis Haley and Will Wheaton had a baby.

 

[jeremy]

I, too, am very fond of the late Mr. Gomez's teaching and thinking; however, I am hard pressed to see the true practical application of either the "tactical" or "proactive" reload in a deadly force encounter especially when,as Cedartop aptly described it, "you are amped up on adrenaline like a meth junky."


At 3:40 of the video, Mr. Gomez advocates the "proactive" reload while running full out during a gunfight. Perhaps, I am an outlier, but I lack the multi-dexterous requirements to do what follows, basically all at the same time:

1. run at full speed (forward, obliquely, sideways, backwards, etc.) over uneven, unfamilliar terrain, while,
2. holding a handgun up in my sight,
3. removing the magazine,
4. tucking it into my waistband under a shirt,
5. removing another magazine from its pouch, and
6. inserting it into the empty magwell.

All the while:

1. not stumbling or falling down,
2. not running into a tree, or rock, or pole, or car, or fire hydrant, or....., and
3. neither dropping nor fumbling either:
4. the first magazine,
5. the second magazine, or
6. the gun, and
7. still concentrating on the location and actions of the assailant(s).

Are there any independently verifiable examples of the above being done successfully by one person in a gunfight?

Yes, there are.

A tactical reload for those of us in the Military is done, when you are behind Cover, during a lull in the flow of the Battle.
No fancy dancing around...
Just a there is nothing going on right now, I am behind Cover. I don't know if I may have to fight my way to my next piece of Cover. I am not sure how many rounds are left in the Mag/Drum/Belt. Screw it I am putting in a fresh Mag before I run up the street to the next doorway...

 

[cedartop]

Yes, there are.

A tactical reload for those of us in the Military is done, when you are behind Cover, during a lull in the flow of the Battle.
No fancy dancing around...
Just a there is nothing going on right now, I am behind Cover. I don't know if I may have to fight my way to my next piece of Cover. I am not sure how many rounds are left in the Mag/Drum/Belt. Screw it I am putting in a fresh Mag before I run up the street to the next doorway...

Thanks for the input Jeremy. I had three multiple combat tour NG Soldiers in one of my AK classes last year who said almost the exact same thing. I had forgotten about that until you reminded me of it with your story. Probably though Bob was looking for an example in a civilian context.

As for the fancy dancing around, all we are talking about there is finding cover if it is available.

 

[Coach]

I, too, am very fond of the late Mr. Gomez's teaching and thinking; however, I am hard pressed to see the true practical application of either the "tactical" or "proactive" reload in a deadly force encounter especially when,as Cedartop aptly described it, "you are amped up on adrenaline like a meth junky."





At 3:40 of the video, Mr. Gomez advocates the "proactive" reload while running full out during a gunfight. Perhaps, I am an outlier, but I lack the multi-dexterous requirements to do what follows, basically all at the same time:

1. run at full speed (forward, obliquely, sideways, backwards, etc.) over uneven, unfamilliar terrain, while,
2. holding a handgun up in my sight,
3. removing the magazine,
4. tucking it into my waistband under a shirt,
5. removing another magazine from its pouch, and
6. inserting it into the empty magwell.

All the while:

1. not stumbling or falling down,
2. not running into a tree, or rock, or pole, or car, or fire hydrant, or....., and
3. neither dropping nor fumbling either:
4. the first magazine,
5. the second magazine, or
6. the gun, and
7. still concentrating on the location and actions of the assailant(s).

Are there any independently verifiable examples of the above being done successfully by one person in a gunfight?

This post made me think of something from the distant past.
I took a team to wrestling camp once at the University of Iowa, and in one session Royce Alger was teaching technique. He gave a speech about how to win a state title in the last period when down by one point. The scenario was the guy that was ahead shoots and grabs a leg and plans to hold on and let the clock run out. Royce demonstrates the technique and then asks if there are questions before having everyone try it. A kids sticks his hand up and and says I don't have the balance to do that move. Royce looks right at him, and eveyone leans in to hear what he has to say. "Then it won't matter and you won't be in the state finals."

If any of us don't have the skills and the ability to do what is necessary it won't really matter. The only one size fits all solution or technique is doing what is required to prevail.

I like the Clint Smith view of shoot until I win, or until the gun is empty.

 

[jeremy]

Thanks for the input Jeremy. I had three multiple combat tour NG Soldiers in one of my AK classes last year who said almost the exact same thing. I had forgotten about that until you reminded me of it with your story. Probably though Bob was looking for an example in a civilian context.

As for the fancy dancing around, all we are talking about there is finding cover if it is available.

Not a problem!

As far as helping with a Civilian Application, to me it would be the same.
I was just involved in a Gunfight.
There is now a lull in the battle.
Find Cover.
Then Reload.

The Fancy Dancing Comment...
I just got back from a Class were the Instructors were wanting the Students to do a Side Step on their way to cover as they done a Tac Reload while in the Movement to Cover...
I kept getting told I was doing it wrong because I would Run my ass up to the Cover then do my Reload. With a wall, and time to do a complicated maneuver...
I also kept getting told to twist my Carbine over after Every set of shots to check for a Malfunction as I was advancing to the next target sequence...

 

[shooter521]

Its like Travis Haley and Will Wheaton had a baby.

http://familyguy.onsugar.com/Emphasis-H-Wil-Wheaton-3077459

 

[NIFT]

Thanks for the input Jeremy. I had three multiple combat tour NG Soldiers in one of my AK classes last year who said almost the exact same thing. I had forgotten about that until you reminded me of it with your story. Probably though Bob was looking for an example in a civilian context.

Sorta...kinda, Mike, but not necessarily. Here is the part of my post in question:



"...to do what follows, basically all at the same time:

1. run at full speed (forward, obliquely, sideways, backwards, etc.) over uneven, unfamilliar terrain, while,
2. holding a handgun up in my sight,
3. removing the magazine,
4. tucking it into my waistband under a shirt,
5. removing another magazine from its pouch, and
6. inserting it into the empty magwell.

All the while:

1. not stumbling or falling down,
2. not running into a tree, or rock, or pole, or car, or fire hydrant, or....., and
3. neither dropping nor fumbling either:
4. the first magazine,
5. the second magazine, or
6. the gun, and
7. still concentrating on the location and actions of the assailant(s).

Are there any independently verifiable examples of the above being done successfully by one person in a gunfight?"


Positioning behind cover is not running at full speed. Eliminate the first requirement (running at full speed), and the remaining 12 are relatively easy, especially behind cover. Add additional "good guys" to the fray who are providing cover, along with a lull in the action, and the reload/tactical reload/proactive reload/reload-with-retention should be done.

One person, running at full speed over uneven, unfamiliar terrain, I suspect, would be hard pressed to do all the other 12 things successfully at the same time.

Perhaps it has happened, and if there is an independently verifiable example, I'd love to read the independently verifiable account.

Even if there is/are such, I would not recommend doing it!

 

[Kisada]

Its like Travis Haley and Will Wheaton had a baby.

LOL! Ensign Crusher, holster that firearm!

 

[U.S. Patriot]

Yes, there are.

A tactical reload for those of us in the Military is done, when you are behind Cover, during a lull in the flow of the Battle.
No fancy dancing around...
Just a there is nothing going on right now, I am behind Cover. I don't know if I may have to fight my way to my next piece of Cover. I am not sure how many rounds are left in the Mag/Drum/Belt. Screw it I am putting in a fresh Mag before I run up the street to the next doorway...

I'm with Jeremy on this. I'm not going to take the time to drop my mag, put it in my waste band, drop pouch, etc. Then grab a fresh mag and reload while in the open and exposed. You engaged, if you are not behind cover, find some. Then prepare for the posibility of more threats.

 

[esrice]

Some of us forget that most people don't practice enough to get the easy stuff right under stress, let alone the fine motor control stuff like juggling two mags in your hand when you are amped up on adrenaline like a meth junky.

I really like the way Gomez classifies reloads as 'proactive' and 'reactive'. I think it helps to clarify when a "tactical" reload is relevant.

In FoF I use tactical reloads quite a bit. Typically its after I've engaged an attacker, they go down, and I've pulled my wounded buddy to a safe position of cover to administer aid. Just before the pistol goes back in the holster it gets "gassed up" again. But as others have already keyed on, it isn't something that's done fast or in a hurry.

The "reload with retention" appears to be more of a solution looking for a problem, and something competitive shooters came up with when they were required to do a "tactical reload" under time pressure (which it was never designed to do).

 

[rvb]

The "reload with retention" appears to be more of a solution looking for a problem, and something competitive shooters came up with when they were required to do a "tactical reload" under time pressure (which it was never designed to do).

Yes.

I haven't practiced a RWR since the last time I shot IDPA several years ago. Tac loads make more sense, IMO. Interestingly IDPA realized tac loads / RWR shouldn't be "on the clock" and changed the rules so they weren't required during a stage... except that it is still part of the classification system and "on the clock." However, other goofy rules for that game (eg can't drop a magazine unless at slide lock) often force shooters into a RWR on the clock for the best score.

-rvb

 

[AD Marc]

I wish the term "lull in the action" and similar concepts would go away. Time is something that you don't know you have until it has already passed. A lull in the action is something we determine in hindsight.

You fight, you assess the effectiveness of your fighting, you scan for other threats, then you top off your gun so you're ready to fight again. That fight can find you again at any moment, so you need to get your gun up as quickly as possible.

The way we teach the proactive reload is to simply access the spare magazine, then reload as usual, dumping the partial mag on the ground, inserting the fresh magazine, then running the slide to assure there is a round in the chamber. Then, if possible, you can recover the partial magazine. If you can't, those rounds probably won't matter in the context of a civillian shooting. If you can, you are doing it with a full gun in your hand that is ready to fight.

Otherwise, Paul's method is good.

The "tactical" reload is simply an invitation to drop both magazines as your dexterity may be impaired by adrenaline, injury, slippery hands or any other number of reasons.

 

[rvb]

Some of us forget that most people don't practice enough to get the easy stuff right under stress, let alone the fine motor control stuff

I agree most people don't practice enough to hit the broad side of a barn or even get a new mag into the grip, yet alone something like a tac load at the gun.... But I'm not sure we should invalidate a technique based on how much other folks choose to practice..... But I can understand keeping it out of 'Self Defense 101'.

-rvb

 

[AD Marc]

I agree most people don't practice enough to hit the broad side of a barn or even get a new mag into the grip, yet alone something like a tac load at the gun.... But I'm not sure we should invalidate a technique based on how much other folks choose to practice..... But I can understand keeping it out of 'Self Defense 101'.

-rvb

Every one talks about fine motor control as if it is just a matter of practice. Aside from the effects of adrenaline, What if it's diminished from injury? What if your body is shunting blood from your extremities because you're spilling blood on the ground? What if that blood is making your hands slippery? What if there is physical damage to the hand?

We want to practice robust manipulations that work under the largest number of bad situations.

 

[rvb]

Every one talks about fine motor control as if it is just a matter of practice. Aside from the effects of adrenaline, What if it's diminished from injury? What if your body is shunting blood from your extremities because you're spilling blood on the ground? What if that blood is making your hands slippery? What if there is physical damage to the hand?

We want to practice robust manipulations that work under the largest number of bad situations.

if if if
if any of those things happen, use an alternate technique. Should i NEVER train drawing with my strong hand because of what might happen preventing me from using it? I dont believe the 'ifs' invalidate the technique.

what 'if' none of that has happened? should I ALWAYS plan to stick the gun between my knees and draw the new mag strong hand, despite a perfectly functioning weak hand?

I'm getting more into tactics (vs techniques) than i prefer on this forum...

-rvb

 

[AD Marc]

There is a difference between being diminished from injury and disabled from injury. The injury might not even be to either of your arms.

If your support arm is disabled, yes, you can resort to a one handed technique, if it is merely diminished, you'll probably end up just dropping things as you attempt your standard, not-so-robust response. When we refer to the "robustness" of a technique, we are talking about its ability to work under the most number of bad circumstances. After you fail is a bad time to find out you should have used a different technique.

I hope that makes more sense.

 

[rvb]

...varying degrees of the same issue. understood I went to the end of the spectrum.

hard to have a cure-all for all scenarios. eg if your reload plan is to always over-hand rack the slide, what if your WH is bloody, injured etc? maybe it becomes better to hit the slide release. But if it's never practiced because "it's a fine motor skill"....

All tools in the toolbox...

-rvb