Secession: an academic discussion

[KLB]

I don't know how the legal aspect of it works out, but i could see parts of states leaving to become parts of other states rather than independent countries. West Virginia being the only example I can think of. Are there federal laws that fix the boundaries of the states today?

Apparently some counties in Maryland are asking to become part of West Virginia.

Maryland GOP legislators want their counties to secede and join West Virginia

Legislators from three GOP-controlled counties in Maryland on Thursday requested to jump ship and formally join up with the neighboring state of West Virginia.

www.foxnews.com

 

[jake blue]

I think that in order to redraw State boundaries or divide States up into smaller districts requires a constitutional convention and the consent of at least 3/5 of the states.

 

[BigRed]

Three Reasons to Start Taking Secession Seriously | Mises Institute

All polities come to an end sooner or later. The fanciful America-will-last-forever position is something that should seem plausible only to small children or

mises.org

 

[jamil]

Three Reasons to Start Taking Secession Seriously | Mises Institute

All polities come to an end sooner or later. The fanciful America-will-last-forever position is something that should seem plausible only to small children or

mises.org

Nah. You let Southern legislators have too much say and they’ll write their own mandates. Like missionary position-only ****ing.

 

[BigRed]

Nah. You let Southern legislators have too much say and they’ll write their own mandates. Like missionary position-only ****ing.

Great insight, Jamil, and right on topic.

 

[KLB]

I think that in order to redraw State boundaries or divide States up into smaller districts requires a constitutional convention and the consent of at least 3/5 of the states.

From what I've read it is only the agreement of both State's legislatures and Congress.

 

[NewPerson556]

Political change only ever comes from the top down.

So in order for there to be secession or balkanization two things have to be in play.

1. Federal authority has to be severely weakened.
2. There must be a willingness among leaders in each state or at least a super majority to secede or balkanize.

 

[BigRed]

Political change only ever comes from the top down.

Perhaps. Perhaps not.

Some may disagree. Samuel Adams, Thomas Paine and even Thomas Jefferson might serve as just a few examples.

Ghandi could be another.

Jesus of Nazareth could be another.

The kid who struck some british soldier in Boston with a snowball could be another.

Samuel Whittemore could be another.

A little guy standing in front of a column of tanks in China could be another.

James Bowie could be another.

Perhaps David Crockett.

Anne Frank comes to mind.

Given a few minutes, I could come with numerous examples.

"political rule" is only what man is willing to tolerate, and nothing more.

 

[Lmo1131]

"political rule" is only what man is willing to tolerate, and nothing more.

And for how long. Warsaw, 1943.

 

[The Bubba Effect]

Perhaps. Perhaps not.

Some may disagree. Samuel Adams, Thomas Paine and even Thomas Jefferson might serve as just a few examples.

Ghandi could be another.

Jesus of Nazareth could be another.

The kid who struck some british soldier in Boston with a snowball could be another.

Samuel Whittemore could be another.

A little guy standing in front of a column of tanks in China could be another.

James Bowie could be another.

Perhaps David Crockett.

Anne Frank comes to mind.

Given a few minutes, I could come with numerous examples.

"political rule" is only what man is willing to tolerate, and nothing more.

Alright, I am convinced.

 

[jake blue]

So I was just reading that Florida Governor DeSantis just signed emergency legislation which aims to circumvent pending federal vaccine mandates by employers, schools, etc as requirement for employment, enrollment, participation, etc. Buried in there is also what I would consider the first baby step of any long term secession strategy which is active nonparticipation in federal agencies and actions, in this case Florida's signaling future nonparticipation in OSHA. No doubt it's starting there because OSHA is the agency drafting and driving the vaccine mandates by employers.

Now I'm not totally certain of this but isn't OSHA a government agency, not some industry trade organization one can simply cancel their membership? But I've long suspected based on the growing tensions between states and federal authority/overreach that secession won't just erupt onto the political spectrum as an outright isolationist movement by one or more states but rather it'll slowly be brought to a boil as all of our societal frictions continue to drive this state/federal hostility. Today it's Florida's symbolic declaration that they're not cooperating with OSHA anymore. Tomorrow it's Kansas saying they're resigning from the Dept. of Education because they won't teach evolution - OR - critical race theory - OR - sex education or whatever. Or then it's Texas drawing a line 10 miles inland of the US-Mexican border and placing a million Rangers and/or drones to intercept all the illegals that the CBP is letting just walk into the country like museum tourists. Or California growing tired of waiting for the rest of the country to catch up to their environmental enlightenment and establishing their own EPA, then putting up checkpoints at state lines to turn away or levy fines against outsiders who think they can flaunt California's infinite wisdom... Oh wait, they already have both of those!

My point is that no state is just going to come out and say "We quit the USA" and actually go through with it BUT over the course of time, with myriad grievances and concerns, states can likely whittle away at their participation in certain federal agencies and programs. Some will be welcome. Some will be contentious but ultimately resolved through hard-fought compromise. Some may never fully resolve but cool to a sort of state/federal detente regarding that matter that becomes yet another quirky and sometimes irrational behavior of one state out of the union. Anything to stave off the possibly inevitability of a state-against-state or state-vs-federal armed conflict. But because these smaller issues don't come dressed as outright secession, people won't consider that each one is just another pebble of the innumerable issues that are pebbles in the stream of American history, that are gradually collecting, building up, and slowly stemming the tide of social progress until they form a dam of ideological intransigence that forms the lake of cultural stagnation! (I'm pretty impressed with that one!)

 

[Magyars]

 

[BigRed]

So I was just reading that Florida Governor DeSantis just signed emergency legislation which aims to circumvent pending federal vaccine mandates by employers, schools, etc as requirement for employment, enrollment, participation, etc. Buried in there is also what I would consider the first baby step of any long term secession strategy which is active nonparticipation in federal agencies and actions, in this case Florida's signaling future nonparticipation in OSHA. No doubt it's starting there because OSHA is the agency drafting and driving the vaccine mandates by employers.

Now I'm not totally certain of this but isn't OSHA a government agency, not some industry trade organization one can simply cancel their membership? But I've long suspected based on the growing tensions between states and federal authority/overreach that secession won't just erupt onto the political spectrum as an outright isolationist movement by one or more states but rather it'll slowly be brought to a boil as all of our societal frictions continue to drive this state/federal hostility. Today it's Florida's symbolic declaration that they're not cooperating with OSHA anymore. Tomorrow it's Kansas saying they're resigning from the Dept. of Education because they won't teach evolution - OR - critical race theory - OR - sex education or whatever. Or then it's Texas drawing a line 10 miles inland of the US-Mexican border and placing a million Rangers and/or drones to intercept all the illegals that the CBP is letting just walk into the country like museum tourists. Or California growing tired of waiting for the rest of the country to catch up to their environmental enlightenment and establishing their own EPA, then putting up checkpoints at state lines to turn away or levy fines against outsiders who think they can flaunt California's infinite wisdom... Oh wait, they already have both of those!

My point is that no state is just going to come out and say "We quit the USA" and actually go through with it BUT over the course of time, with myriad grievances and concerns, states can likely whittle away at their participation in certain federal agencies and programs. Some will be welcome. Some will be contentious but ultimately resolved through hard-fought compromise. Some may never fully resolve but cool to a sort of state/federal detente regarding that matter that becomes yet another quirky and sometimes irrational behavior of one state out of the union. Anything to stave off the possibly inevitability of a state-against-state or state-vs-federal armed conflict. But because these smaller issues don't come dressed as outright secession, people won't consider that each one is just another pebble of the innumerable issues that are pebbles in the stream of American history, that are gradually collecting, building up, and slowly stemming the tide of social progress until they form a dam of ideological intransigence that forms the lake of cultural stagnation! (I'm pretty impressed with that one!)

I am not sure I follow your "pebble parable".

I would contend greater centralization of authority leads to cultural stagnation. Decentralization to the opposite.

Regardless, one can certainly see that secession is already well under way in the hearts of those who embrace Liberty. (I am not suggesting the Florida governor is necessarily one of those)

 

[Flash-hider]

Why is it we are wanting to break up the United States? Do we truly believe doing that will land us in the Liberty and Freedom panacea we urn for? I believe we need to unmask the forces of evil and their supporters, the corrupter's and the corrupted, and drive them to the far corners of the earth to the utopia's they desire.

 

[BigRed]

Is the Constitution Broken beyond Repair? | Mises Institute

"No one, including Andrew Jackson, had ever explicitly argued before [Lincoln] that the Constitution authorized or obligated full-scale invasion and coercive

mises.org

 

[BigRed]

Secession Is Not Treason

Secession Isn’t Treason – Abbeville Institute

www.abbevilleinstitute.org

An excerpt from Raphael Semmes, "Memoirs of Service Afloat During The War Between the States", a book still well worth the read.

 

[Magyars]

Secession Is Not Treason

Secession Isn’t Treason – Abbeville Institute

www.abbevilleinstitute.org

An excerpt from Raphael Semmes, "Memoirs of Service Afloat During The War Between the States", a book still well worth the read.

Good read, insightful and enlightening.

 

[manifest destiny]

Secession became main stream when states, cities, counties started declaring themselves to be "sanctuary" locations. Some defended against immigration enforcement. Some defended against 2a attacks. Etcetera. But ALL are defending against the fed running roughshod across that particular location. From there it has only ballooned. There are more states, and locals within states, that are in insurrection to the fed than there were preceding the North v. South war. There exist areas within our country that are flatly rejecting the fed. Immigration, mary j, transportation standards, weapons, medical passports... The secession has already begun. Many don't recognize it for what it is. Those who do worry about the fine print.

 

[jake blue]

Secession became main stream when states, cities, counties started declaring themselves to be "sanctuary" locations. Some defended against immigration enforcement. Some defended against 2a attacks. Etcetera. But ALL are defending against the fed running roughshod across that particular location. From there it has only ballooned. There are more states, and locals within states, that are in insurrection to the fed than there were preceding the North v. South war. There exist areas within our country that are flatly rejecting the fed. Immigration, mary j, transportation standards, weapons, medical passports... The secession has already begun. Many don't recognize it for what it is. Those who do worry about the fine print.

Agreed and it's usually a smorgasbord of issues, with states and cities picking and choosing where they want federal preeminence and where they want to openly defy federal regulation.

 

[jake blue]

I wonder, is anyone here watching the news about Poland and Hungary versus the European Union? While not a perfect reflection of the situation in the USA, it nevertheless still illustrates in near-real-time how social and political pressures play out when you have one or more states which determine to stand firmly against the central authoritarianism of the larger governing body. No one wants to go to war over this but both sides continue to tighten the screws and dig in their heels in opposition to one another. It would be easy to draw a very similar correlation to any number of US states actively resisting DC in one form or another.