Russia vs. Ukraine Part 2

[buckwacker]

I'm not sure what is so hard to comprehend about "no". As with many things in life nothing is cut and dried black or white and extenuating circumstances make things muddy. But no is still no. I can understand the reasoning and rationale without condoning.

But you still have not shown me where we invaded Libya with thousands of troops or buried civilians in mass graves.

Now who's having trouble with comprehension? If you're only interested in a pedantic pissing contest I'll bow out of the conversation and leave you with the last word.

Hmmmm.... I didn't see an answer to my question.

I didn't claim we had boots on the ground in Libya, but you said we were defending their government from Isis which is categorically false. We took and held realestate in Iraq for years, perhaps based on made up intelligence to justify the invasion.

All I'm saying is you're buying the US government narrative on Russia, and after the deluge of Western anti-Russian propaganda we've been forced to float around in for the last several years, I'm failing to understand why a level headed person would do so with that as the backdrop. I'm not defending Russia's invasion of Ukraine or how their conducting military operations, but questioning why the West seems hell bent on taking them down. I don't really understand what's going on, but something ain't right.

But to claim the moral high ground because Russia "invaded a sovereign country" smacks of hypocrisy when you make excuses for our country doing the same.

 

[bobzilla]

Now who's having trouble with comprehension? If you're only interested in a pedantic pissing contest I'll bow out of the conversation and leave you with the last word.

Your words:

What about Iraq, Libya?

That was in reply to me asking if INVADING a sovereign country was OK. Do I need to link you to that as well? YOU asked about us INVADING Libya. That's on you there.

 

[buckwacker]

Your words:


That was in reply to me asking if INVADING a sovereign country was OK. Do I need to link you to that as well? YOU asked about us INVADING Libya. That's on you there.

I see, I'll bow out.

 

[bobzilla]

I see, I'll bow out.

Of course. Can't admit you might have been wrong. But please, take me to the carpet. That's hypocrisy.

 

[buckwacker]

Getting a bit heated here. Deep breath, thread between the ditches.

Please read between the lines that it’s not a good day to question my style of moderation.

What is your style of moderation?

Sorry man, hope your day got better.

 

[KellyinAvon]

What is your style of moderation?

Sorry man, hope your day got better.

On the Classic DISC I'm an ID. I'm influential, but if that fails I'm very directive.

Today I questioned whether people were intentionally trying to **** me the **** off, or if they were just that stupid.

By the time I posted this in the thread? My moderation style was more like

 

[smokingman]

On the Classic DISC I'm an ID. I'm influential, but if that fails I'm very directive.

Today I questioned whether people were intentionally trying to **** me the **** off, or if they were just that stupid.

By the time I posted this in the thread? My moderation style was more like

I am sure I missed some of the conversation. I have very few(3) people blocked so do not see their comments. I do appreciate INGO mods though. I feel this is one of the few places online that allows open conversations,as long as they remain civil,with perhaps a little sarcasm or humor.

Keep up the good work and thank you for this place.

 

[1DOWN4UP]

Ukraine is no more than a Money Laundering influence peddling proxy war. There is no good guy,only bad guys.Russia wants influence. We want influence. We have been stiring the pot there since the late 90s. Now the western media ( Who has lied to us continuously for the last 10 years with an election and a pandemic) is now telling us the truth. Really?Ukraine has been waring and borders moving since 800AD. minus the Soviet years.Ukraine hates Russians because of the Holodomor .Russia still have not forgot Ukraine helped the Nazis invade Russia.So now we are screwing with the country with the largest nuclear stockpile in the world.This is insanity. This is a can of worms we should have no part of.Let them fight it out .

 

[BugI02]

I think you want the USA [Russia] to have the moral high ground so badly you will ignore anything or call it propaganda if it does not fit into the view you want.

Repurposed post still makes sense to a lot of us. The more circumspect of us are trying to say that your presentation also gives the impression of an agenda and not just reporting - and being beat over the head with yet another agenda isn't any more enjoyable when you do than when anyone else does

There likely is no moral high ground in Ukraine, there are just ordinary people fighting and dying to stay free regardless of the imperfections of their leadership, and that is a situation that resonates right now with a growing number of us

 

[BugI02]

And this has what to do with Russia invading a sovereign country? You have refused to answer my question multiple times but I will try one more time: is it ok to invade another country as has been done here? Should that action be ignored or responded to? All of your posts are excuses of why it’s ok, which tells us that you think it’s fine but when called out on that spin it as we are war mongers or sone other ********. So please answer the question

It was probably no more OK to invade Ukraine than it was to invade Grenada

 

[bobzilla]

It was probably no more OK to invade Ukraine than it was to invade Grenada

at least we actually invaded Grenada unlike Libya.

 

[smokingman]

Repurposed post still makes sense to a lot of us. The more circumspect of us are trying to say that your presentation also gives the impression of an agenda and not just reporting - and being beat over the head with yet another agenda isn't any more enjoyable when you do than when anyone else does

There likely is no moral high ground in Ukraine, there are just ordinary people fighting and dying to stay free regardless of the imperfections of their leadership, and that is a situation that resonates right now with a growing number of us

I enjoy debating. Almost always have. I see a topic with the majority on one side and a possible opposing view I could add to the conversation and I will. Why? Because I enjoy when people at least think about the opposing view.

14k dead despite two treaties in place supporting independently governed areas,and most of them in Donbass. Putin even warned Ukraine 3 days in a row about the escalating artillery strikes. It was even reported by Time magazine the day before the invasion that over 1700 artillery rounds landed in Donbass in a single day the day before Putin invaded(I posted that article in this thread).The UN did nothing. We did nothing.
I also remember things like speaking or teaching in Russian being outlawed in Ukraine,when over 30% of the population only spoke Russian. I remember 1/3 of the Ukrainian parliament either missing or dead,shortly after maiden. I remember political parties being outlawed and the leaders executed one by one, until this year when only one party was left. I read the humanitarian(UN) reports of the national police of Ukraine rounding up thousands of people in Ukraine,rape,murder,sex trade, and them disappearing. I read the Israel news of shops in Kiev taken over by Ukrainian nationals or robbed by the police on a regular basis.

All of this. The entire mess started long before we organized a coup. Ukraine has been a mess since it was created out of carved up empires and countries. I see zero reason for us to be involved at all,other than our seeming need and want to always have an enemy.

I am proud to be an American. I am sad how few seem to understand what that should actually mean. I have not liked us being the world police. I do not like our use of a non government bank to control other countries. I despise those who outsourced our economy and cripple our industry with absurd regulations based largely on fake science. I loath our mass media and public education system as nothing short of brainwash and enslaving the population through ignorance and indoctrination. If I think we as a country are morally in the wrong I will not hesitate to say so here or anywhere.

I did the same when Libya happened. The most prosperous,free,best standard of living,highest educated,a currency with 0 inflation for over 10 years,and a 100% debt free country in Africa...that since we helped the rebels has loans over 800 times their GDP(down 92% since the rebellion) from the IMF,USA,and 11 other countries,and has been in civil war for 11+ years now. Their industry,education,and even medical system totally in collapse. What was Libya's true crime? Trying to start a gold based African wide currency that would compete with other global currencies.
I do not think Ukraine will be any better off when this is over. I do not think it needed to happen.
I see zero reason to be involved. We have already damaged our international credibility to the point the US dollar is likely irreversibly damaged. We have crippled our "allies" economies(see Germany and things like BASF moving most operations to CHINA because of regulations and a lack of reliable cheap energy in the EU(BASF also just wrote off 1 billion for this quarter,their loss in Nord 1,and 2 which they were very invested in and helped construct).
Toss in Taiwan for good measure(or the current coup we are trying in Brazil)...and yea we are not doing so well on the world stage. Of course if you only read US based news you think everyone is 100% totally behind the USA and in support of our policy in Ukraine. Most of the world is NOT in support of it,and we are losing support even amongst our closest allies(Great Britain excluded).

 

[asevans]

Ukraine is no more than a Money Laundering influence peddling proxy war. There is no good guy,only bad guys.Russia wants influence. We want influence. We have been stiring the pot there since the late 90s. Now the western media ( Who has lied to us continuously for the last 10 years with an election and a pandemic) is now telling us the truth. Really?Ukraine has been waring and borders moving since 800AD. minus the Soviet years.Ukraine hates Russians because of the Holodomor .Russia still have not forgot Ukraine helped the Nazis invade Russia.So now we are screwing with the country with the largest nuclear stockpile in the world.This is insanity. This is a can of worms we should have no part of.Let them fight it out .

Wow. Somebody who gets it.

 

[buckwacker]

I enjoy debating. Almost always have. I see a topic with the majority on one side and a possible opposing view I could add to the conversation and I will. Why? Because I enjoy when people at least think about the opposing view.

14k dead despite two treaties in place supporting independently governed areas,and most of them in Donbass. Putin even warned Ukraine 3 days in a row about the escalating artillery strikes. It was even reported by Time magazine the day before the invasion that over 1700 artillery rounds landed in Donbass in a single day the day before Putin invaded(I posted that article in this thread).The UN did nothing. We did nothing.
I also remember things like speaking or teaching in Russian being outlawed in Ukraine,when over 30% of the population only spoke Russian. I remember 1/3 of the Ukrainian parliament either missing or dead,shortly after maiden. I remember political parties being outlawed and the leaders executed one by one, until this year when only one party was left. I read the humanitarian(UN) reports of the national police of Ukraine rounding up thousands of people in Ukraine,rape,murder,sex trade, and them disappearing. I read the Israel news of shops in Kiev taken over by Ukrainian nationals or robbed by the police on a regular basis.

All of this. The entire mess started long before we organized a coup. Ukraine has been a mess since it was created out of carved up empires and countries. I see zero reason for us to be involved at all,other than our seeming need and want to always have an enemy.

I am proud to be an American. I am sad how few seem to understand what that should actually mean. I have not liked us being the world police. I do not like our use of a non government bank to control other countries. I despise those who outsourced our economy and cripple our industry with absurd regulations based largely on fake science. I loath our mass media and public education system as nothing short of brainwash and enslaving the population through ignorance and indoctrination. If I think we as a country are morally in the wrong I will not hesitate to say so here or anywhere.

I did the same when Libya happened. The most prosperous,free,best standard of living,highest educated,a currency with 0 inflation for over 10 years,and a 100% debt free country in Africa...that since we helped the rebels has loans over 800 times their GDP(down 92% since the rebellion) from the IMF,USA,and 11 other countries,and has been in civil war for 11+ years now. Their industry,education,and even medical system totally in collapse. What was Libya's true crime? Trying to start a gold based African wide currency that would compete with other global currencies.
I do not think Ukraine will be any better off when this is over. I do not think it needed to happen.
I see zero reason to be involved. We have already damaged our international credibility to the point the US dollar is likely irreversibly damaged. We have crippled our "allies" economies(see Germany and things like BASF moving most operations to CHINA because of regulations and a lack of reliable cheap energy in the EU.
Toss in Taiwan for good measure(or the current coup we are trying in Brazil)...and yea we are not doing so well on the world stage. Of course if you only read US based news you think everyone is 100% totally behind the USA and in support of our policy in Ukraine. Most of the world is NOT in support of it,and we are losing support even amongst our closest allies(Great Britain excluded).

Libya wasn't our fault cause we didn't have boots on the ground.

 

[bobzilla]

Libya wasn't our fault cause we didn't have boots on the ground.

We didn't INVADE Libya. Stop acting like a lib and twisting ****.

 

[buckwacker]

We didn't INVADE Libya. Stop acting like a lib and twisting ****.

May I suggest decaff.

 

[nra4ever]

And back to what's happened over there....

Ukraine Unleashes Mass Kamikaze Drone Boat Attack On Russia’s Black Sea Fleet

www.blacklistednews.com

 

[Wolfhound]

And back to what's happened over there....

Ukraine Unleashes Mass Kamikaze Drone Boat Attack On Russia’s Black Sea Fleet

www.blacklistednews.com

At least the Black Sea Fleet is a legitimate military target. The linked story was good but the comments are even more entertaining.

 

[oze]

At least the Black Sea Fleet is a legitimate military target. The linked story was good but the comments are even more entertaining.

One of the more intriguing comments referred to "the non-existent attack on Pearl Harbor", which of course sent me scurrying to DDG...

Really? There are nutcases out there that actually believe that, just like 9/11, the Japanese attack on Pearl Harbor was faked??? You've got to be ****ing kidding me! FDR was a 33rd degree Mason, or some such ****, so there. I'm almost afraid to find out, but are these people left-wing or right wing tin-hatters? Somebody please tell me that it's a lefty idea.

 

[Wolfhound]

One of the more intriguing comments referred to "the non-existent attack on Pearl Harbor", which of course sent me scurrying to DDG...

Really? There are nutcases out there that actually believe that, just like 9/11, the Japanese attack on Pearl Harbor was faked??? You've got to be ****ing kidding me! FDR was a 33rd degree Mason, or some such ****, so there. I'm almost afraid to find out, but are these people left-wing or right wing tin-hatters? Somebody please tell me that it's a lefty idea.

When it comes to conspiracy theories I consider the denial of the holocaust the most dangerous one.