Russia vs Ukraine anyone watching this ignite?

[printcraft]

*IRS SCRIBBLES NOTES EVERISHLY*

They need to start with politicians on the national level first, because that seems like a 100% conviction rate.

 

[1DOWN4UP]

 

[Cameramonkey]

They need to start with politicians on the national level first, because that seems like a 100% conviction rate.

What? And eat their own? Not gonna happen.

These kinds of rules are merely for peons like you and I. The political elite are exempt from such things.

 

[snorko]

I literally was re-reading Ferfal's book this morning.

 

[smokingman]

Trying to keep things straight. Is Gorbachev a member of the WEF, an historical revisionist or both?
Thanks for your help.

Did NATO Promise Not to Enlarge? Gorbachev Says "No"

Russian President Vladimir Putin has made it well known his antipathy towards NATO, claiming the Alliance took advantage of Russian weakness after the collapse of the Soviet Union in violation of promises allegedly made to Moscow by Western leaders. Steven Pifer argues that no such promises were...

www.brookings.edu

Document Number 119 of the Gorbachev Foundation archives contains a detailed transcript of the discussion between Soviet General Secretary, Mikhail Gorbachev and US Secretary of State James Baker on February 9, 1990. This document shows that James Baker repeatedly assured Gorbachev that the North Atlantic Treaty Organization (NATO) would not expand.

"Baker: If that happens, our troops will return home. We will leave any country that does not desire our presence. The American people have always had a strong position favoring this. However, if the current West German leadership is at the head of a unified Germany then they have said to us they will be against our withdrawal. And the last point. NATO is the mechanism for securing the U.S. presence in Europe. If NATO is liquidated, there will be no such mechanism in Europe. We understand that not only for the Soviet Union but for other European countries as well it is important to have guarantees that if the United States keeps its presence in Germany within the framework of NATO, not an inch of NATO’s present military jurisdiction will spread in an eastern direction."
He goes on to mention it not expanding three more times.

Record of conversation between Mikhail Gorbachev and James Baker in Moscow. (Excerpts) | National Security Archive

nsarchive.gwu.edu

The International Non-Govermental foundation for socio-economic and political studies (The Gorbachev Foundation) - Reading room - Archive and library

www.gorby.ru

So revisionist(or rather what is your source for saying that?). He certainly was not a founding member of WEF(1973) and was to old already to ever be in the young global leaders program.

World Economic Forum - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Young Global Leaders - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

I can give probably 20 times Russia was told NATO would not expand.It should be a matter of a simple google search as well,but I am actually unsure about that because I use several proxies that allow me to search from other countries(and rarely with google).
Genscher met with James Baker, prior to Baker’s February 9, 1990 meeting with Gorbachev, stressing the importance of assuring Gorbachev that NATO would not exploit events by expanding eastward. Baker embraced this policy, emphatically telling Gorbachev – three times during their meeting – that NATO would not expand eastward. Baker told Gorbachev “Americans understand the importance for the USSR and Europe of guarantees that not an inch of NATO’s present military jurisdiction will spread in an eastern direction.”

US and NATO members continued to assure the Soviet Union that it would not expand eastward. In March 1991, British Prime Minister John Major reaffirmed to Soviet officials that there would be no NATO expansion to the east. The United States and other countries continued to make similar assurances, and during a meeting in July 1991, Manfred Worner, the Secretary General of NATO, told Soviet officials that NATO was firmly against any expansion.

 

[smittygj]

I think we should offer a reward of 1 billion US dollars on putin. That would save us a lot of money and problems.

I think Academi would take that offer, and deliver!

 

[Tombs]

Why is it seemingly acceptable for Putin to want buffer states between him and NATO, but seen as an aggressive move when NATO looks to create more buffer states on their side?

Because NATO promised they wouldn't expand eastwards. Which they immediately did.

If all NATO is good for is poking the bear and trying to constantly egg countries into a nuclear war, I have to ask you sincerely, what is the point of NATO? Is it really providing security or is it simply endangering the whole world?

Where was NATO when a communist dictator took over in Canada and suspended the constitution?

 

[Tombs]

View attachment 186153

I guess they're perfectly fine with imprisoning political opposition, killing journalists, and shutting down TV stations that expose corruption.

This propaganda is getting so ridiculous it's starting to read more like a comedy.
You also have to watch out for the anti-propaganda. In short, anti-propaganda tries to rope you into picking a team, because if you aren't against X, you're for X. And if you don't support Y, you're for X.

Also do you believe that there was absolutely 0 western involvement in euromaidan?

 

[Brad69]

In Army speak logistics is defined by a term “tooth to tail”.

How many logistic troops (tail) do you have to support warfighters (tooth).

Our ratio is about 16 teeth to 7 tail.

Russia 21 to 7.

 

[rooster]

Unpopular opinion but I still think most of the information we are being fed is BS propaganda. Russian supply lines aren’t failing, most of the blown up tank photos we see are old with a photoshopped z on them.

It takes time to invade and secure a large populated country like Ukraine. Everyone who thinks Russia is falling apart bc they didn’t secure the capital In 48 hours is delusional

 

[KellyinAvon]

So if the Poles send their MiG-29s to Ukraine... what do they have to remove from them first? Poland is in NATO, what are these jets equipped with, that can't go to a non-NATO country?

Back in 93 at Taegu Air Base, ROK we (we being the 27 Blue Suiters on a ROKAF Base) had to babysit two USAF F-16s out of Osan that diverted to Taegu because the U-2 was on approach at Osan and Kunsan "had a sinkhole" (you just can't make this up.)

My point is if ROKAF troops couldn't even look in the cockpit (this being why we babysat the two Vipers) of a USAF F-16, ain't no way this is like going to webuyanycar.com.

Are these the same jets that the Ukraine Air Force used to/does fly? If you pull a panel, is it the same stuff inside? The MiG-29 has been around since we were flying F-16 A Models in the late-80s. Are the spare parts in Ukraine compatible with these birds? What drops and launches off a Polish MiG-29? Is it the same stuff that drops and launches off a Ukrainian MiG-29?

More importantly, where they gonna fly them out of? IIRC these can operate in less than pristine environments (designed to not be ramp-vacuums like USAF jets) but you still need a few thousand feet of runway without bomb craters. If you can put enough planes in the air for a combat air patrol, can you defend against cruise missiles?

 

[rooster]

And if Ukraine really does still have an active and organized Air Force and Army why is there still a big convoy of Russian vehicles 20 to 30 miles from the capital???

 

[DoggyDaddy]

And if Ukraine really does still have an active and organized Air Force and Army why is there still a big convoy of Russian vehicles 20 to 30 miles from the capital???

Why has that convoy been sitting in the same place for what, almost a week now?

 

[smokingman]

The distance to Moscow from Kyiv and the distance to Moscow from the Baltic off the coast of Finland are the same. I see no need to possess Ukraine in order to 'put missiles within 6 minutes of Moscow'

Further, a depressed trajectory SLBM can cover 1000 miles in around 7 minutes, so the number of locations from which an equivalent attack could be launched are even greater than the equivalent distance limitation if we are going by ToF

I hope you do not believe that we have no SSBNs lurking in those areas or that the Russians have none similarly within range of us. No one needs to base missiles close to their target unless we are talking about theatre weapons of which the Russians have far more. The Russian stated reasons for going to war do not add up

Pershing 2​

Which we have in Germany.Sorry....looked it up. It is out of date,and has been replaced......so yes my point is now invalid. Why we dumped a road worthy mobile nuke though is a better question at this point. Sometimes having a long term memory is a bad thing lol.

 

[smokingman]

I guess they're perfectly fine with imprisoning political opposition, killing journalists, and shutting down TV stations that expose corruption.

This propaganda is getting so ridiculous it's starting to read more like a comedy.
You also have to watch out for the anti-propaganda. In short, anti-propaganda tries to rope you into picking a team, because if you aren't against X, you're for X. And if you don't support Y, you're for X.

Also do you believe that there was absolutely 0 western involvement in euromaidan?

woops.I mean we were caught....by the entire world. The audio is all over the web to just look up Victoria Nuland Ukraine. A few of the names she mentions either vanished or were found dead later just an FYI(Rada members she did not like). Here is a list of at least 5 found dead,but more than 30 went "missing". https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oleksandr_Peklushenko

Ukraine crisis: Transcript of leaked Nuland-Pyatt call

A transcript of the alleged conversation between Assistant Secretary of State Victoria Nuland and the US ambassador to Ukraine, Geoffrey Pyatt discussing the crisis in Ukraine.

www.bbc.com

 

[BugI02]

Because NATO promised they wouldn't expand eastwards. Which they immediately did.

Defiant Putin signs treaty making Crimea part of Russia

MOSCOW - Russian President Vladimir Putin, defying Ukrainian protests and Western sanctions, on Tuesday signed a treaty making Crimea part Russia but said he did not plan to seize any other regions of Ukraine.

www.gmanetwork.com

"Don't believe those who try to frighten you with Russia and who scream that other regions will follow after Crimea," Putin said. "We do not want a partition of Ukraine. We do not need this."

Good thing Putin doesn't lie like NATO does

promises, promises

 

[BugI02]

Pershing 2​

Which we have in Germany.Sorry....looked it up. It is out of date,and has been replaced......so yes my point is now invalid. Why we dumped a road worthy mobile nuke though is a better question at this point. Sometimes having a long term memory is a bad thing lol.

The Pershing systems were eliminated after the ratification of the Intermediate-Range Nuclear Forces Treaty on 27 May 1988. The missiles began to be withdrawn in October 1988 and the last of the missiles were destroyed by the static burn of their motors and subsequently crushed in May 1991 at the Longhorn Army Ammunition Plant near Caddo Lake, Texas. Although not covered by the treaty, West Germany agreed unilaterally to the removal of the Pershing 1a missiles from its inventory in 1991, and the missiles were destroyed in the United States.

 

[Tombs]

Defiant Putin signs treaty making Crimea part of Russia

MOSCOW - Russian President Vladimir Putin, defying Ukrainian protests and Western sanctions, on Tuesday signed a treaty making Crimea part Russia but said he did not plan to seize any other regions of Ukraine.

www.gmanetwork.com

"Don't believe those who try to frighten you with Russia and who scream that other regions will follow after Crimea," Putin said. "We do not want a partition of Ukraine. We do not need this."

Good thing Putin doesn't lie like NATO does

promises, promises

Once again you're making a "If you aren't for X then you're supporting Y" kind of statement.

No, being against one thing doesn't make you support another.

 

[Tombs]

Why has that convoy been sitting in the same place for what, almost a week now?

Probably because Ukraine has no more air assets to blow them up.

 

[Redhorse]

Unpopular opinion but I still think most of the information we are being fed is BS propaganda. Russian supply lines aren’t failing, most of the blown up tank photos we see are old with a photoshopped z on them.

It takes time to invade and secure a large populated country like Ukraine. Everyone who thinks Russia is falling apart bc they didn’t secure the capital In 48 hours is delusional

So the First Amendment was secretly scrapped and replaced with a ministry of propaganda while the Second hasn't been touched? That seems legit.

Russia isn't the fighting force the world thought it was and the civilian population is actively being armed to resist occupation. Given the Ukrainians lack of concern prior to the invasion, it's not hard to believe Putin thought this would be a quick in and out with a regime change. I just don't get why so many people act like there's a big conspiracy and the media is willing compliant in it. I'm not trying to be a jerk but all the years I've been on INGO I've yet to see many, if any, of the conspiracies I see on here all the time come into fruition.