Rule Number One: All Guns are always loaded

[ATM]

I was refuting your assertion that somehow the fourth rule (actually the first) made the situation of firearms handling less safe. In the severely constrained model of the real world you posit, wherein everyone obeys all the rules all the time, I claim that the end result would be the same. Ergo, the four rules are not less safe than some proper subsets of the four consisting of three

Outside of that hypothetical and very limited microcosm, in the many and varied real world situations, the four rules would be superior to any version of three I've yet seen

You weren't refuting me at all, you were responding to someone else. I simply noted that you were attempting to prove argument #1 - unnecessary and unhelpful (and doing a fine job, I might add).

Any harm from the fourth rule is clearly argument #2, which I also pointed out and didn't try to further in our discussion. I was just happy you were helping to prove #1.

If they wind up the same, neither set being less safe as followed, you supported 3 being sufficient but not better than 4. That's enough. Thanks.

 

[BugI02]

Taken directly from: Education and Training|NRA Gun Safety Rules

The fundamental NRA rules for safe gun handling are:
1. ALWAYS keep the gun pointed in a safe direction.
This is the primary rule of gun safety. A safe direction means that the gun is pointed so that even if it were to go off it would not cause injury or damage. The key to this rule is to control where the muzzle or front end of the barrel is pointed at all times. Common sense dictates the safest direction, depending on different circumstances.


2. ALWAYS keep your finger off the trigger until ready to shoot.
When holding a gun, rest your finger on the trigger guard or along the side of the gun. Until you are actually ready to fire, do not touch the trigger.


3. ALWAYS keep the gun unloaded until ready to use.
Whenever you pick up a gun, immediately engage the safety device if possible, and, if the gun has a magazine, remove it before opening the action and looking into the chamber(s) which should be clear of ammunition. If you do not know how to open the action or inspect the chamber(s), leave the gun alone and get help from someone who does.

When using or storing a gun, always follow these NRA rules: [Oddly enough, what you frame as good ideas, tips and expansions, the NRA names rules; by my count numbers 4 through 12]

Know your target and what is beyond.

Be absolutely sure you have identified your target beyond any doubt. Equally important, be aware of the area beyond your target. This means observing your prospective area of fire before you shoot. Never fire in a direction in which there are people or any other potential for mishap. Think first. Shoot second.Know how to use the gun safely.

Before handling a gun, learn how it operates. Know its basic parts, how to safely open and close the action and remove any ammunition from the gun or magazine. Remember, a gun's mechanical safety device is never foolproof. Nothing can ever replace safe gun handling.Be sure the gun is safe to operate.

Just like other tools, guns need regular maintenance to remain operable. Regular cleaning and proper storage are a part of the gun's general upkeep. If there is any question concerning a gun's ability to function, a knowledgeable gunsmith should look at it.

Use only the correct ammunition for your gun.Only BBs, pellets, cartridges or shells designed for a particular gun can be fired safely in that gun. Most guns have the ammunition type stamped on the barrel. Ammunition can be identified by information printed on the box and sometimes stamped on the cartridge. Do not shoot the gun unless you know you have the proper ammunition.

Wear eye and ear protection as appropriate.Guns are loud and the noise can cause hearing damage. They can also emit debris and hot gas that could cause eye injury. For these reasons, shooting glasses and hearing protectors should be worn by shooters and spectators.

Never use alcohol or over-the-counter, prescription or other drugs before or while shooting.Alcohol, as well as any other substance likely to impair normal mental or physical bodily functions, must not be used before or while handling or shooting guns.

Store guns so they are not accessible to unauthorized persons.Many factors must be considered when deciding where and how to store guns. A person's particular situation will be a major part of the consideration. Dozens of gun storage devices, as well as locking devices that attach directly to the gun, are available. However, mechanical locking devices, like the mechanical safeties built into guns, can fail and should not be used as a substitute for safe gun handling and the observance of all gun safety rules.Be aware that certain types of guns and many shooting activities require additional safety precautions.

Cleaning
Regular cleaning is important in order for your gun to operate correctly and safely. Taking proper care of it will also maintain its value and extend its life. Your gun should be cleaned every time that it is used. A gun brought out of prolonged storage should also be cleaned before shooting. Accumulated moisture and dirt, or solidified grease and oil, can prevent the gun from operating properly. Before cleaning your gun, make absolutely sure that it is unloaded. The gun's action should be open during the cleaning process. Also, be sure that no ammunition is present in the cleaning area.
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So let's inspect the use of these rules in a defensive pistol encounter. Scenario is two individuals approaching you in a parking lot in a way that toggles your SA and who will not keep their distances when instructed to do so. You draw your weapon:

First up, the NRA

1) ALWAYS keep the gun pointed in a safe direction. [If you follow this rule absolutely then your firearm will not be of much use in the encounter. I don't think low ready counts as a safe direction. I don't think this rule encompasses any situation in which you might use your sidearm defensively hence my conclusion it is aimed at range training]

2) ALWAYS keep your finger off the trigger until ready to shoot [This will work as intended, even in a stressful encounter it takes very little time to engage the trigger and may minimize the risk of unintentionally engaging the target]

3) ALWAYS keep the gun unloaded until ready to use [Well, hope you had enough time to insert a magazine and chamber a round. Otherwise things won't turn out so well]



Next up, Col. Cooper:

1) ALL GUNS ARE ALWAYS LOADED [The firearm you are deploying is your personal sidearm. You do not need to check its status as you loaded it when you strapped it on and it has not subsequently been out of your possession]

2) NEVER LET THE MUZZLE COVER ANYTHING YOU ARE NOT PREPARED TO DESTROY [If I have deployed my firearm, I certainly feel it might be necessary to use it and I am willing to do so. While low ready is not an inherently safe direction, in this scenario I would be pointing the firearm downward at an intermediate area between myself and the threat but definitely toward the threat. I would not be covering them with the muzzle until I had decided to shoot, and if I've decided to shoot I am certainly willing to destroy them. This works fine]

3) KEEP YOUR FINGER OFF THE TRIGGER UNTIL YOUR SIGHTS ARE ON THE TARGET [Again, this works as intended. At low ready my finger would not be on the trigger but if I decided to shoot I would cover the trigger as I presented the firearm (sounds a bit stilted but can't think of a better way to say it). Intent governs action]

4) BE SURE OF YOUR TARGET [This is an admonishment to stay aware of your surroundings in addition to the targets and consider that you may miss and whether you can maneuver to minimize risk to bystanders without increasing risk to yourself. We can train for this, but I bet it's bloody hard to do during the real thing]


To me one set of rules seems optimized for a formalized training regimen and one seems optimized for the real world possibility of using your firearm defensively

 

[ATM]

When using or storing a gun, always follow these NRA rules: [Oddly enough, what you frame as good ideas, tips and expansions, the NRA names rules; by my count numbers 4 through 12]

Are you even reading my responses or just continuing along with trying to find objections unfettered by refutation and the accompanying requirements to correct your course. This same error of yours has been pointed out to you repeatedly.

You tried it with the Appleseed event rules, and I replied:

...I haven't advocated for those 4 Appleseed rules because they're not universal. Appleseed events rely on those same two universal safe gun handling rules to ensure safety, but add an event procedural rule and one of those general good suggestions to look out for one another to their event rules.
It would be absurd to suggest that after they leave the event they'll need to find someone to tell them to load. However, if they are determined to handle guns safely after the event, we did give them every tool required to do so.

You tried it with Revere's Riders safety rules, and I replied:

Try not to confuse every list of safety rules you find with the actual safe gun handling rules we've adopted from the NRA and which I propose are universal (even if many lists you will find may contain some of either or both).

...now with 2 very distinct lists of rules from the NRA itself, you attempt the same.

It has been pointed out now a third time that this is not a legitimate course of refutation, you are merely repeating the same error with every new list you find.

 

[ATM]

<continued> mine in red to keep reformatting to a minimum

So let's inspect the use of these rules in a defensive pistol encounter. Scenario is two individuals approaching you in a parking lot in a way that toggles your SA and who will not keep their distances when instructed to do so. You draw your weapon:

First up, the NRA

1) ALWAYS keep the gun pointed in a safe direction. [If you follow this rule absolutely then your firearm will not be of much use in the encounter. I don't think low ready counts as a safe direction. I don't think this rule encompasses any situation in which you might use your sidearm defensively hence my conclusion it is aimed at range training]

Your misinterpretation does not cripple this rule or relegate it to a range with paper targets. If you have a safer option than unholstering and pointing it, take the option and leave it holstered. If leaving it holstered is not the safest direction, you deploy it and point it in the safest direction. There may be many or few good directions available, accounting for what lies between and beyond, but likely at least somewhat toward the threat if you did decide to draw. How can you claim that a gun pointed toward the threat is not the safest direction you could possibly be pointing it? Only if you didn't really perceive a threat.

2) ALWAYS keep your finger off the trigger until ready to shoot [This will work as intended, even in a stressful encounter it takes very little time to engage the trigger and may minimize the risk of unintentionally engaging the target]

3) ALWAYS keep the gun unloaded until ready to use [Well, hope you had enough time to insert a magazine and chamber a round. Otherwise things won't turn out so well]

A defensive gun is in use even when not deployed. I ensure that mine is loaded for such use, but others must choose how they prefer to carry so I don't include that choice as a rule..Another easily remedied and explained misinterpretation.

Do you have anything else you'd like explained? This was pretty quick and I hope we're on the same page now ready to compare apples to apples.


Next up, Col. Cooper:

1) ALL GUNS ARE ALWAYS LOADED [The firearm you are deploying is your personal sidearm. You do not need to check its status as you loaded it when you strapped it on and it has not subsequently been out of your possession]

2) NEVER LET THE MUZZLE COVER ANYTHING YOU ARE NOT PREPARED TO DESTROY [If I have deployed my firearm, I certainly feel it might be necessary to use it and I am willing to do so. While low ready is not an inherently safe direction, in this scenario I would be pointing the firearm downward at an intermediate area between myself and the threat but definitely toward the threat. I would not be covering them with the muzzle until I had decided to shoot, and if I've decided to shoot I am certainly willing to destroy them. This works fine]

3) KEEP YOUR FINGER OFF THE TRIGGER UNTIL YOUR SIGHTS ARE ON THE TARGET [Again, this works as intended. At low ready my finger would not be on the trigger but if I decided to shoot I would cover the trigger as I presented the firearm (sounds a bit stilted but can't think of a better way to say it). Intent governs action]

4) BE SURE OF YOUR TARGET [This is an admonishment to stay aware of your surroundings in addition to the targets and consider that you may miss and whether you can maneuver to minimize risk to bystanders without increasing risk to yourself. We can train for this, but I bet it's bloody hard to do during the real thing]

To me one set of rules seems optimized for a formalized training regimen and one seems optimized for the real world possibility of using your firearm defensively

You are free to try again. Really apply some scrutiny now that you understand how to properly compare and contrast the two.

 

[BugI02]

Well perhaps you should specifically state, in toto, the trio of rules of which you speak. I have seen mention of a requirement, for organizations in the running to have their rules considered, that they be reputable. I have seen all iof the organizations I quoted mentioned in this thread. Your own posts, as you pointed out, link to Revere's Riders.


And then you quote (yourself) "Try not to confuse every list of safety rules you find with the actual safe gun handling rules we've adopted from the NRA and which I propose are universal (even if many lists you will find may contain some of either or both)."

Now I am totally confused. Are you using the NRAs rules or not? If using something different can you direct me to the post that lists them if they have been shared? If they have not, can we remove the ambiguity at this time

Its hard to get on the same page if we're not even reading the same script

 

[BugI02]

Are you even reading my responses or just continuing along with trying to find objections unfettered by refutation and the accompanying requirements to correct your course. This same error of yours has been pointed out to you repeatedly.

Pot, meet kettle. Were you reading my responses when I took you to task for even framing the discussion as such that people with whom you disagreed were adding a fourth rule to your chosen three, when clearly you are subtracting a rule from the pre-existing four.

Your attempt to argue from the high ground only highlights how topologically challenged you may be

 

[BugI02]

You are free to try again. Really apply some scrutiny now that you understand how to properly compare and contrast the two.

You are begging the question. Have you stopped beating your premises yet? I have always known how to compare and contrast facts and opinions. Where I seem to be having difficulty is mapping ATM 'logic' onto the real thing

 

[ATM]

Well perhaps you should specifically state, in toto, the trio of rules of which you speak.

...Its hard to get on the same page if we're not even reading the same script

OK, if you follow the link below, it will be the 3 rules listed under The fundamental NRA rules for safe gun handling are:

Not to be confused with other general gun safety rules, event rules, etc. even if they are on the same page.

If there's no push back on the sufficiency of the 3 NRA rules for safe gun handling, as listed and described here, nothing amiss with using these to instruct novices and experts alike, I will continue to use and advance this universal, concise and effective system of safe gun handling. I just want to make sure I'm not missing something obvious or necessary...

 

[ATM]

Pot, meet kettle. Were you reading my responses when I took you to task for even framing the discussion as such that people with whom you disagreed were adding a fourth rule to your chosen three, when clearly you are subtracting a rule from the pre-existing four.

Your attempt to argue from the high ground only highlights how topologically challenged you may be

I'm arguing from where I stand, having abandoned ALL GUNS ARE ALWAYS LOADED long ago. In many posts, though not all, I know that I've asked why retain or add it to include those who currently adhere to it and those who currently don't. Retain or add, why?

I can't help it if my way resembles the high way.

 

[ATM]

You are begging the question. Have you stopped beating your premises yet? I have always known how to compare and contrast facts and opinions. Where I seem to be having difficulty is mapping ATM 'logic' onto the real thing

I'm here to help.

 

[BugI02]

OK, if you follow the link below, it will be the 3 rules listed under The fundamental NRA rules for safe gun handling are:

Not to be confused with other general gun safety rules, event rules, etc. even if they are on the same page.

The NRA rules I quoted are exactly the same as, and from the same source as ...' as listed and described here,' [Edit: My link is listed first line #402. Contrast and compare]

Now look below/beyond the three pretty pictures after the three primary rules.

The very next line says, quote: "When using or storing a gun, always follow these NRA rules:" [purple added by me]

So when is a rule not a rule. What is the sound of eight additional rules clapping

 

[ATM]

The NRA rules I quoted are exactly the same as, and from the same source as ...' as listed and described here,' [Edit: My link is listed first line #402. Contrast and compare]

Now look below/beyond the three pretty pictures after the three primary rules.

The very next line says, quote: "When using or storing a gun, always follow these NRA rules:" [purple added by me]

So when is a rule not a rule. What is the sound of eight additional rules clapping

Not sure where the disconnect is happening, but I'll try to be clear here:

Not all rules are rules for safe gun handling. There are many other rules which are event specific, gun specific, or otherwise circumstantial in some regard. I'M NOT PROPOSING ANY OF THEM - just the 3 rules for safe gun handling - the ones with numbers on that page (as distinct from the more general 'rules' designated with nondescript bullet points.

 

[BugI02]

Well since NRA3 is essentially a more pedantic Cooper1, which you've already declared unnecessary and superfluous; perhaps in your relentless quest for clarity and efficiency you should just pare it down to NRA1 and NRA2

What does NRA3 add to safe firearm handling that Cooper1 does not

 

[ATM]

Well since NRA3 is essentially a more pedantic Cooper1, which you've already declared unnecessary and superfluous; perhaps in your relentless quest for clarity and efficiency you should just pare it down to NRA1 and NRA2

Baby steps. Let's keep it down to just 3 for now. You did identify the least critical of the 3, though, hence its number.

What does NRA3 add to safe firearm handling that Cooper1 does not

The obvious advantage compared to Cooper1 is clarity. It is an instructive and actionable step which can be followed rather than just an oddly out-of-order statement, a metaphor meant to be contemplated in search of the deeper implied meanings.

 

[BugI02]

... rather than just an oddly out-of-order statement, a metaphor meant to be contemplated in search of the deeper implied meanings.

Mmmm. Sounds very zen. And no one would say safe firearms handling couldn't benefit from mindfulness

 

[ATM]

Mmmm. Sounds very zen. And no one would say safe firearms handling couldn't benefit from mindfulness

I highly recommend the following list to get started: Zen Quotes - Zen Sayings - Meditation Quotes

Of course, I do not propose that we mix any of them in as rules for safe gun handling.

I'd be more inclined and willing to replace the front sight with the navel as a point of focus for an exceptionally deep and peaceful sight picture.

 

[ATM]

So, are there any remaining misconceptions about these 3 rules for safe gun handling or their application?

Is anyone able to show these 3 rules for safe gun handling to fail their universal test, to lack sufficiency in any regard?

Anyone able to expose the "training wheels" asserted of this set of 3 rules which one should specifically abandon when they want to handle guns safely in every circumstance?

Anyone able to to show 'traditional #1' to be a more apt solution or placement for not assuming guns are unloaded than the clearly stated NRA rule #3?

Don't be shy, tragedies continue to occur due to poor choices and those choices can be guided with real steps to follow. Clear, concise and effective safe gun handling instruction is the goal here.

 

[foszoe]

So, are there any remaining misconceptions about these 3 rules for safe gun handling or their application?

Is anyone able to show these 3 rules for safe gun handling to fail their universal test, to lack sufficiency in any regard?

Anyone able to expose the "training wheels" asserted of this set of 3 rules which one should specifically abandon when they want to handle guns safely in every circumstance?

Anyone able to to show 'traditional #1' to be a more apt solution or placement for not assuming guns are unloaded than the clearly stated NRA rule #3?

Don't be shy, tragedies continue to occur due to poor choices and those choices can be guided with real steps to follow. Clear, concise and effective safe gun handling instruction is the goal here.

What is your rule for when the guy next to you is not following the 3 rules?

 

[ATM]

What is your rule for when the guy next to you is not following the 3 rules?

If they are starting to inadvertently do something unsafe, verbal correction.

If they are doing something unsafe, defensive or corrective action.

No single rule, very circumstantial.

 

[ATM]

In an attempt to bring this back to the beginning, regarding the OP and title of this thread:

How would this have played out with the OP adhering to the 3 NRA rules for safe gun handling, assuming the same exact scenario that the other party had neglected to follow them?

Would the title be more or less clear and instructive for the readers by quoting NRA #3?

Would NRA #3 be more or less detailed as to the precise nature of the error and associated remedy?

Would the OP have been able to memorize and follow 3 rules to accomplish the same result or is 4 easier, clearer and/or more concise. (Obviously rhetorical - the OP is a very sharp and competent individual. Please insert yourself or any experience level of hypothetical gun handler into this scenario).

And finally, if the 3 NRA rules for safe gun handling were the widely accepted norm here on INGO, would there be more or less discussion of metaphoric meanings, more or less discussion of the actual violation, more or less debate over stating simply the nature of the violation and the actual remedy?