I drew my weapon, was it the right thing to do

[Tommy2Tone]

j706 , just to make sure I understand you .

You mean to tell us that as a LEO , if you were off duty in your POV and civies . If three men run up on you and surround you , you would not draw your weapon ?

I believe he has already said no he would have not. And who knows what would have happened.

 

[2ADMNLOVER]

I believe he has already said no he would have not. And who knows what would have happened.

If that is the case , then I would wish him the best of luck with that .

I understand cautioning folks about not getting "trigger happy" , but not being ready at all seems like setting yourself up for failure .

You may get away with it 10 times but your luck will run out .

 

[printcraft]

I believe he has already said no he would have not. And who knows what would have happened.

Nothing..... or a coffin with a flag on it, and brothers in dress blues.

 

[SirRealism]

Update to this story:

I just heard that a spiral notebook was found behind the dumpster at that liquor store. It was open to a page on which was hastily scrawled in broken Spanish: "Note to self --- Not as easy as I thought... some people coming to this liquor store are not sheep. Wrong me. Make appointment with career counselor." Next to the notebook was found a pair of formerly tidy whities.

I'm sorry, I couldn't resist. In all seriousness, I'm so happy the situation ended safely for you. If those guys were up to no good, then maybe their encounter will make them re-think their decisions. I think chubbs is now one of those statistics conveniently ignored by gun-grabbers when they claim that our guns are much more likely to harm than help us.

I'm going to sign up for some more training soon.

 

[Bisley Man]

I don't draw my gun for nothing...

...It has been stated that those of us who agree OP did the right thing are "fearful of heart". I'm not a nervous nelly , a Barney Fife who gets all upset anytime something "condition orange" occurs. 9am on a Sunday morn., the door knob on my apt. front door slowly opens, someone tried to open my locked door, 2-3 times. I didn't panick,didn't shoot the door 15 times.I took my 9mm pointed at the floor, finger OFF the trigger and looked out the peep hole. It was a 5-6 yr old boy looking for his playmate. No one killed, no one in prison, no one frightened. Just another case of glad I had a gun and did not have to use it.

 

[Bubba]

I don't read most of the "dissenting" posts as an admonishment to avoid drawing a weapon at all costs, just to avoid drawing too hastily. I say defend yourself if you need to defend yourself, and don't sacrifice your ability to defend yourself in the name of looking harmless (The OP mentioned having to choose between keys and gun in the face of three aggressive individuals). Chubbs may have been right or wrong - I wasn't there. However, there's always time to think about what you are doing, whether you are really under attack, and either advance your plan of action or make a new one.

I was once in such a situation. I was working as an armed guard and, while I didn't have to draw my weapon, a person in a crowd suddenly started grappling with me and I felt him tugging on my holstered pistol. The event is one of the clearest memories I possess. I remember the first grapple as a half-second of disbelief. When I felt him go for my gun, time slowed down as my adrenaline started flowing. I've never been as calm, focused, or moved as fast as I did that night. I told my partner in an unnaturally calm, almost conversational voice "Jake, he's going for my gun" as my elbow slammed down onto the hammer of the pistol to keep it in the holster. My partner threw the guy to the ground, still holding me, so I ended up on the bottom of the dogpile with 500lb of men pinning my legs. As I tried to get free, my assailant bit my arm, not quite hard enough to draw blood. I remember the thought process as I decided what to do next.

-Shoot him? No, too much force and there's a whole bunch of people crowded in behind him.
-OC him? No, small space, too many people, and too close to get him without reducing my own effectiveness.
-Hit him with a baton? No, I can't extend the baton from this position, and the only target I could reach would be his skull. Definite no no.
-Empty hand fighting? No, can't get any power behind the strike, and still can't reach any effective targets.

At least, if I'd been thinking in words it would have been something like that. In the end, I OC'd him. It was a risk but it got me out with the lowest probability of getting anyone seriously hurt. From feeling the bite to pushing the trigger on my spray I used about 3 seconds. I even remember my train of thought hesitating at the baton stage and thinking about and really through available strike areas and the legal ramifications of applying the baton, since it seemed to me to be the smallest step up the force continuum I could take without involving bystanders. Point is, I had time. Lots and lots of it. I made plans, listed and discarded options, thought about my surroundings and the legality of my actions. Three seconds sounds like no time at all when you're sitting in front of your computer, but IME it's more than enough time if you're in "fight or flight" mode.

 

[wag1911]

I am done with this thread. It can go on forever. People that have their mind all ready set will not be changed. I just hope anyone who reads these posts will stop and consider what the risks (On both sides) really are.

I am glad you have posted your opinions here regardless of whether I disagree with you or not. I think it added to the debate and just because you are in the minority, doesn't mean your opinion is any less valued until you prove otherwise.

You are right that some people's minds are SET. Those are not the people you should be addressing. Just do not confuse those of us open to the discussion as being SET because we do not agree with your opinion.

Most responsible gun owners will have thought out their priorities BEFORE the 's$%t hits the fan.' In my case, legal ramifications will always be secondary to the well being of myself and my family. Though as you pointed out, those legal ramifications are deserving of consideration and may indeed change the course of my decision making in an altercation.

 

[Phil502]

I don't read most of the "dissenting" posts as an admonishment to avoid drawing a weapon at all costs, just to avoid drawing too hastily. I say defend yourself if you need to defend yourself, and don't sacrifice your ability to defend yourself in the name of looking harmless (The OP mentioned having to choose between keys and gun in the face of three aggressive individuals). Chubbs may have been right or wrong - I wasn't there. However, there's always time to think about what you are doing, whether you are really under attack, and either advance your plan of action or make a new one.

I was once in such a situation. I was working as an armed guard and, while I didn't have to draw my weapon, a person in a crowd suddenly started grappling with me and I felt him tugging on my holstered pistol. The event is one of the clearest memories I possess. I remember the first grapple as a half-second of disbelief. When I felt him go for my gun, time slowed down as my adrenaline started flowing. I've never been as calm, focused, or moved as fast as I did that night. I told my partner in an unnaturally calm, almost conversational voice "Jake, he's going for my gun" as my elbow slammed down onto the hammer of the pistol to keep it in the holster. My partner threw the guy to the ground, still holding me, so I ended up on the bottom of the dogpile with 500lb of men pinning my legs. As I tried to get free, my assailant bit my arm, not quite hard enough to draw blood. I remember the thought process as I decided what to do next.At least, if I'd been thinking in words it would have been something like that. In the end, I OC'd him. It was a risk but it got me out with the lowest probability of getting anyone seriously hurt. From feeling the bite to pushing the trigger on my spray I used about 3 seconds. I even remember my train of thought hesitating at the baton stage and thinking about and really through available strike areas and the legal ramifications of applying the baton, since it seemed to me to be the smallest step up the force continuum I could take without involving bystanders. Point is, I had time. Lots and lots of it. I made plans, listed and discarded options, thought about my surroundings and the legality of my actions. Three seconds sounds like no time at all when you're sitting in front of your computer, but IME it's more than enough time if you're in "fight or flight" mode.

Good points Bubba, time does slow down when you are in a tight fix but do you think it made a difference that you had a partner, essentially making it 2 on 1 in your favor, ruling out the dog had friends who chose not to mess with you guys.

 

[dburkhead]

I think he would have shot him, i think i would have too. You have no other defense in a vehicle and do not know his intentions. He already saw that you are armed and still decided to engage you. I don't know about others here but i do not plan on getting in a fist fight. I agreed with you with a gun is the last line of defense but you have me thinking again and i think that in THIS situation that a physical fight with three guys is my last resort. I like to think that i carry a gun so i don't have to get in a physical fight. Granted i don't go around starting them, but if someone just came up and punched me or was arguing with me and threatening me, i would not fight them if i am armed. **i am not saying i would point a gun at them either** i would definitely let them know i was armed and have a grip, and if they still wanted to fight then...

Not that you where saying that he should have fought back in this hypothetical situation, but i think fighting while armed is dangerous for many reasons included getting your gun stolen.

There's also the "disparity of force" issue. There were three of them, taking it upon themselves to surround him.

Multiple attackers against a single defender is a situation where one has reasonable fear of death or serious bodily injury.

 

[dburkhead]

I don't know the original poster but...I think he might have fired. That is where the problem lies. The other two was on the opposite side of the vehicle. If you shoot someone because he punches you, well you have got a huge problem. That is one of my biggest concerns with some guys who carry. Think about it guys!!

Unlawful entry of an occupied motor vehicle, no duty to retreat and reasonable force, including deadly force, specifically authorized in law.

The others were on the opposite side of the car, but how long would it take them to get around/over it while the OP was tussling with the one at the window (if it came to that)? That makes it 3 against one, "disparity of force" which is an implicit threat of death or serious bodily injury.

 

[dburkhead]

If the guy has punched me while I'm in my vehicle with 2 other of his friends on one side of the vehicle and him on the other, I'd probably say yes. For, one, it could become a 1 on 3 fight really quick and two, someone in their motor vehicle doesn't have to retreat in Indiana.

You have a case where folk come from behind a dumpster (why were they behind a dumptster--it certainly looks like coming from hiding), split up and surround him, including grabbing hold of the car (hands on the door), and now adding in a physical assault by one of them against the person already in the car.

J207's conversion of that specific into the far more general "three guys approaching you" and "someone punching you in the nose" strikes me as rather dismissive of the various specifics related that make the situation not just "three guys approaching you" or...

 

[dburkhead]

Well...all I can say is do what you think is right and what you can live with. But I encourage you to do some soul searching on that one bud. It scares me for you.

So, basically, in your view he should have waited until, what, the guy already had grabbed him and started pulling him out of the car (possibly now having control of his gun-hand making it more difficult to bring the weapon into play), or had pulled a weapon of his own making it a matter of who was faster or luckier that day?

It's really sounding like you are advising waiting until it's too late for a defense to, you know, defend.

 

[dburkhead]

No. Knife = deadly force as far as I know. If someone gets hostile with a knife that's sufficient cause as far as I know.

Yup. "Deadly force" doesn't come in degrees. If you are threatened with deadly force, whether through "disparity of force," a club, knife, handgun, or 105 mm howitzer, you are legally authorized to use deadly force to defend yourself. None of that Barsoomian "must defend with the same weapon or weaker."

It's not about "honor" or "fairness." It's about being alive at the end of the day.

 

[Crystalship1]

So let me get this right, You exit a store and three males approach you and/or your vehicle and you draw a weapon and point it? WOW!! Yes you did wrong. Matter of fact you broke the law and committed a crime based on the way you described the incident. Unbelievable!! In fear of serious bodily injury or death by a group of guys walking towards you is a stretch IMO. You might want to brush up on state law before you find yourself is some legal jeopardy.

I'll say "Rest In Peace" now, since you'll probably be dead soon if you don't think what this fella did was prudent.

 

[sporter]

..you cannot legally shoot someone just because they punch you!!

So how many times does an 80 year old man need to be punched if he is being robbed before he can respond by firing his weapon in self defense?

Punched until he's knocked out?
Punched until he's bleeding his head and knocked out?
Punched out until he's suffered brain damage?
Punched until dead?
Punched 35 times and wait and see if someone steps him to help him defend himself?


..........................

It's all about the situation in my opinion.
I can take a punch sure (maybe?), I can give them as well.
However if someone starts punching me while I have my two young sons with me I have to think of their safety and cannot guarantee that if I am being punched or knocked out.
At that point I would deploy my pistol and use it.

Tell me I am wrong here?



.......................................

Another thing, never underestimate the strength of 3 Mexican guys who make looks small but probably work with their hands/bodies all day long.
3 vs 1 is a dying/damaging scenario.. I have seen people jumped 4 on 1, 3 on 1, 2 on 1 etc while growing up out west.

The OP did the right thing. He defended himself in a safe manner and he got home safely.
3 guys surround your vehicle and try to open the door, I am sure they were probably just selling Girl Scout cookies.

 

[Bubba]

Good points Bubba, time does slow down when you are in a tight fix but do you think it made a difference that you had a partner, essentially making it 2 on 1 in your favor, ruling out the dog had friends who chose not to mess with you guys.

The outcome of my story depended on brownie points with the Almighty more than anything I or my partner did, and the events have nothing at all in common with the OP. The point I was trying to illustrate was more along the lines of how much you can accomplish in a very short time when the SHTF, and that waiting a few extra moments before drawing a weapon to evaluate your options and the ramifications of your actions is not always the potentially fatal mistake a Monday morning quarterback might think it is.

 

[dburkhead]

The outcome of my story depended on brownie points with the Almighty more than anything I or my partner did, and the events have nothing at all in common with the OP. The point I was trying to illustrate was more along the lines of how much you can accomplish in a very short time when the SHTF, and that waiting a few extra moments before drawing a weapon to evaluate your options and the ramifications of your actions is not always the potentially fatal mistake a Monday morning quarterback might think it is.

Nobody says it always is.

But you're betting your life, on way or another. And armchair quarterbacking can go both ways. In the OP's case, the others backed off when the weapon came into play. If he's waited maybe they would have backed off anyway. And maybe the guy at the window would have grabbed him and he would have had no choice but to actually shoot.

As I see it, whether they assailants in the OP were an actual threat or not they went to some lengths to appear to be a threat.

 

[Roadie]

So how many times does an 80 year old man need to be punched if he is being robbed before he can respond by firing his weapon in self defense?

Punched until he's knocked out?
Punched until he's bleeding his head and knocked out?
Punched out until he's suffered brain damage?
Punched until dead?
Punched 35 times and wait and see if someone steps him to help him defend himself?


..........................

It's all about the situation in my opinion.
I can take a punch sure (maybe?), I can give them as well.
However if someone starts punching me while I have my two young sons with me I have to think of their safety and cannot guarantee that if I am being punched or knocked out.
At that point I would deploy my pistol and use it.

Tell me I am wrong here?



.......................................

Another thing, never underestimate the strength of 3 Mexican guys who make looks small but probably work with their hands/bodies all day long.
3 vs 1 is a dying/damaging scenario.. I have seen people jumped 4 on 1, 3 on 1, 2 on 1 etc while growing up out west.

The OP did the right thing. He defended himself in a safe manner and he got home safely.
3 guys surround your vehicle and try to open the door, I am sure they were probably just selling Girl Scout cookies.

Tell you that you are wrong? No way. I agree totally.

THIS is an example of how bad it has become in our country, when we have to second guess ourselves and decide HOW much harm we will allow to come to ourselves before we are "allowed" to retaliate!

I ask the same questions. How many punches do I have to take, how injured do I have to be, before I can feel reasonably safe that retaliating will not get ME in trouble. It is ludicrous that I even have to think like that.

I posted a story awhile back about a retired Marine, in his 70's if I recall, herded into a back room of a Subway with the Manager by two armed thugs. He complied at first, until they told him to lay face down. He realized at that point that they intended to leave no witnesses. He drew, shot and killed one of the thugs, and the other fled. Of course, the dead thugs family is considering a lawsuit, and claimed the Marine "had no right to take the law into his own hands" and kill their son.

Criminals, as victims? That is what we have come to, and why we have to have conversations like this. How can anyone read the headline:

"Licensed Gun Owner Sued For Defending Himself Against Armed Robbers"

..and NOT see a problem?!

 

[plumber man]

well i have never been in a tight situation like that so im not going to set any bounderies to what i may have done.but it sounds like the op did just fine

 

[mrjarrell]

+1 for the OP. You retreated as far as you could and did what you needed to do.