In a sense, both of these suggestions make un-common sense.
Does that make sense?
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I drew my weapon, was it the right thing to do
- Thread starter chubbs
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- self-defense
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In a sense, both of these suggestions make un-common sense.
Does that make sense?
OK, after reading this for 25 pages now, I think we should all, for a second, applaud j706. Even though a lot of the people do not agree with what he has been saying, he has been illustrating to us all the kind of thinking behind what we will have to face with the Judicial system. Just like the old saying goes: First the criminal victimizes you, then the Judicial system victimizes you.
So, j706, thank you for the time, education, and insight you have given to this thread.
So, j706, thank you for the time, education, and insight you have given to this thread.
Wow, thanks for the story. I fail to see the connection between someone leaving his house armed to confront and attempt to kill someone driving past, and the story that began this thread, someone who perceived a threat that came from three people who rushed up on him out of darkness, from two directions, at night, making unknown communications to one another.
Nobody that I'm aware of on this site has ever advocated anyone shooting at a car driving past. Maybe someone has. If you'd be so good as to show the thread? Did anyone agree with the idea of shooting at random cars that drive past multiple times?
To the OP, at this point it doesn't matter if you were right or wrong. You made it through it safely, thank God. What matters is, what you have learned from it and from this dicussion.
Something I've noticed is people say they want more people to get their LTCH. I've also noticed that people complain about people that carry guns not being properly educated to do so. Now I'm not saying I'm for it or against it, but IMO, with out mandatory training to get you LTCH we will continue to get permit holders that have no business handling firearms. Just my
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I've had to draw 3 times in the 20+ years that I've carried. I'm not sure if they were justified or not. All I know is that I'm still here with my family and that's all that matters to me. My hope is that I never have to draw my firearm in defense again. But if I do, I know that I will have done everything in my power to avoid it.
Thank you j706 for your posts. Even though not very popular. They have made me and (I think) the majority of us think a lot over the last couple of days.
Something I've noticed is people say they want more people to get their LTCH. I've also noticed that people complain about people that carry guns not being properly educated to do so. Now I'm not saying I'm for it or against it, but IMO, with out mandatory training to get you LTCH we will continue to get permit holders that have no business handling firearms. Just my
.I've had to draw 3 times in the 20+ years that I've carried. I'm not sure if they were justified or not. All I know is that I'm still here with my family and that's all that matters to me. My hope is that I never have to draw my firearm in defense again. But if I do, I know that I will have done everything in my power to avoid it.
Thank you j706 for your posts. Even though not very popular. They have made me and (I think) the majority of us think a lot over the last couple of days.
Are you freaking serious? So let me see here, 1. D felony (unlawful pointing of firearm) 2. D felony criminal recklessness with a firearm, 3. Intimidation those are a few I could think of off the top of my head
What could possess someone to do all of that? Was this crazy on any Schedule I or II's at the time of the incident? Seriously
Are you freaking serious? So let me see here, 1. D felony (unlawful pointing of firearm) 2. D felony criminal recklessness with a firearm, 3. Intimidation those are a few I could think of off the top of my head
What could possess someone to do all of that? Was this crazy on any Schedule I or II's at the time of the incident? Seriously
I do not have the answer to your questions. I was not the arresting officer. I did speak to the guy however and he did not seem to me to be impaired. He did mention things he had read in gun magazines and on the net that justified(In his mind) what he did. I really think he thought the vehicle occupants was up to no good. I also believe he (at the time) thought he was justified in all of his actions. He thought he had the right to stop and confront the driver. He actually cited citizen arrest. In his mind,if I understood him correctly,he thought he could and should have checked out the vehicle. He though he had the authority to get it stopped and when it did not stop he thought he had the right and justification to fire shoots in an attempt to get it stopped. At this point no one is sure if he actually fired "at" the vehicle. Once he understood he was in trouble he did have the sense to stop talking. He seemed like a nice decent working guy. He has never been in any trouble. Not even a speeding ticket. The amazing thing to me is he just could not understand what he had done wrong.
tharlow514
Marksman
It is disturbing to me that this guy thought what he did was justified. My guess is that this does not happen often though. Permit holders are overwhelmingly law-abiding citizens. This was obviously a case of poor judgement (understatement of the year). Permit holders do have to realize that they are not cops but they do have a huge responsibility when they decide to get a permit and carry a firearm. Thanks for all of your feedback j706.
SavageEagle
Grandmaster
- Apr 27, 2008
- 19,568
- 38
Ok after reading through about 17 pages I couldn't take it anymore. j706 makes some good points but I think the OP handled himself well. I'd probably done the same. In my mind, pointing or brandishing is the same thing. A gun isn't going to go off unless the firing pin hits the primer so pulling the gun in any direction is all the same to me. It's defined different, but to ME pulling the gun means you intend to use it regardless.
I do not think I would have pulled it until I said "Back off" or something to that effect. If they refused I would have pulled. I'm a little guy and the last fight I was in, my nose got broken and I was left bleeding on the pavement while the attacker sped away. I'm not a fighter and have little training as one. (Purple Belt in Tae Kwon Do) I'm about 135lbs soaking wet fully clothed so if they refuse to back off, knowing I'm carrying or not, I'm not going to try fist to fist. Especially 3vs1. If I'm in my car, my keys are in the ignition because I have them out before I get to my car, always. They make great weapons on the fly. Once in my vehicle I'm outta there if I have the chance.
I was delivering pizza's off of 38th and Georgetown a while back. I went to this apartment complex off of Georgetown that was 99% hispanic. Apparently the wrong place to be at the wrong time. I had 4 pizzas to deliver and figured a good tip. Oh I got a good tip alright. Once I found the address I pulled into a spot but was checking the place out as the entire complex was outside hanging out. A group of at least 20 hispanic men were approaching me as I was getting out of my truck. At this point I climbed back in and threw the pizzas in the passenger seat and started the truck. They began to run at me and before I could back up, they were at my door. I grabbed my maglite and popped the guy in the tip of his front tooth. I know because his tooth fell on my floor and I have the scratch in my maglite to prove it. I laid rubber the whole way out. Not sure if I hit anyone because they were all around my truck at that point. If I'd had a gun, I'd probably not drawn it unless they had my door open.
My question is, should someone wait to be fully attacked before they draw? In the OP's case, 3 men, coming from the shadows and surrounding him, yelling at him in uncomprehensible babble, I'd say he was justified in pulling his gun, but as you said, the burden of proof is on him. The only proof it sounds to me that he could get is if the store had outside cameras.
rep to the OP for being alive to tell us about it.
And I understand not wanting to report it. They left, he left, no one was harmed. Why bring pain and misery to yourself if it doesn't need to be brought?
I do not think I would have pulled it until I said "Back off" or something to that effect. If they refused I would have pulled. I'm a little guy and the last fight I was in, my nose got broken and I was left bleeding on the pavement while the attacker sped away. I'm not a fighter and have little training as one. (Purple Belt in Tae Kwon Do) I'm about 135lbs soaking wet fully clothed so if they refuse to back off, knowing I'm carrying or not, I'm not going to try fist to fist. Especially 3vs1. If I'm in my car, my keys are in the ignition because I have them out before I get to my car, always. They make great weapons on the fly. Once in my vehicle I'm outta there if I have the chance.
I was delivering pizza's off of 38th and Georgetown a while back. I went to this apartment complex off of Georgetown that was 99% hispanic. Apparently the wrong place to be at the wrong time. I had 4 pizzas to deliver and figured a good tip. Oh I got a good tip alright. Once I found the address I pulled into a spot but was checking the place out as the entire complex was outside hanging out. A group of at least 20 hispanic men were approaching me as I was getting out of my truck. At this point I climbed back in and threw the pizzas in the passenger seat and started the truck. They began to run at me and before I could back up, they were at my door. I grabbed my maglite and popped the guy in the tip of his front tooth. I know because his tooth fell on my floor and I have the scratch in my maglite to prove it. I laid rubber the whole way out. Not sure if I hit anyone because they were all around my truck at that point. If I'd had a gun, I'd probably not drawn it unless they had my door open.
My question is, should someone wait to be fully attacked before they draw? In the OP's case, 3 men, coming from the shadows and surrounding him, yelling at him in uncomprehensible babble, I'd say he was justified in pulling his gun, but as you said, the burden of proof is on him. The only proof it sounds to me that he could get is if the store had outside cameras.
rep to the OP for being alive to tell us about it. And I understand not wanting to report it. They left, he left, no one was harmed. Why bring pain and misery to yourself if it doesn't need to be brought?
To the OP; you did a good job following that 6th sense that tells you danger is near. I've had that when walking up on a snake before. Somehow sensed it. My wife, while with her parents in the Grant Tetons was walking on a trail ahead of them and started screaming, her parents come running b/c she herself (at the time) could not figure out why she was so afraid, there was a coiled rattler at her feet ready to strike. SOMETHING, rather SOMEONE intervened.
You followed that innate sense God gave us. Good job. Next time, you know to scan the area before leaving the building and always have a picture of who is where, and when. Your awareness will be a lot better from now on. !
You followed that innate sense God gave us. Good job. Next time, you know to scan the area before leaving the building and always have a picture of who is where, and when. Your awareness will be a lot better from now on. !
I've been following this too. I won't take the time to type my $0.02 because it's been spoken many times here, but I do believe the OP was tactful and handled the situation to the best of his ability. Glad to know you are safe and no shots needed to be fired. My friend was in a situation like this a few weeks ago after my wedding at a gas station, though the man walking to the window decked him in the face through the car a couple times before he drew his gun. The man thought he was making fun of his cousin or some stupid bull****. Regardless, I'm glad he gained control of the situation and the man took off running like a baby before my friend had to fire. Stay safe out there guys.
Joe Williams
Shooter
- Jun 26, 2008
- 10,431
- 38
Best read J706's posts again... if you call the cops, you are setting yourself up for arrest. I used to echo your advice. But, after reading J706's posts I'll not do that again. Unless force is used, I won't call the police. Seems to be about 50/50 either way, so I'll just not tell the cops anything without a lawyer.
Now, maybe I'll call my lawyer and let HIM decide whether or not he wants to call the police on my behalf.
j706,
Forgive me if I missed it it, but I would like your take on how badly outnumbered or hurt I, as a citizen, would have to be before you, as a LEO, would feel I was justified in pulling my weapon?
How badly beaten would I have to be in a 1 on 1?
1 on 1, but the guy has a knife? Does that make a difference?
In the 3 on 1 situation, would I have to wait until I was struck? Not enough? OK, how far do I let it go before I can legally, in your opinion, draw my weapon?
Thank you.
Forgive me if I missed it it, but I would like your take on how badly outnumbered or hurt I, as a citizen, would have to be before you, as a LEO, would feel I was justified in pulling my weapon?
How badly beaten would I have to be in a 1 on 1?
1 on 1, but the guy has a knife? Does that make a difference?
In the 3 on 1 situation, would I have to wait until I was struck? Not enough? OK, how far do I let it go before I can legally, in your opinion, draw my weapon?
Thank you.
My question is, should someone wait to be fully attacked before they draw? In the OP's case, 3 men, coming from the shadows and surrounding him, yelling at him in uncomprehensible babble, I'd say he was justified in pulling his gun, but as you said, the burden of proof is on him. The only proof it sounds to me that he could get is if the store had outside cameras.
rep to the OP for being alive to tell us about it.
I honestly do not have the answer to that. Myself? I do not believe I would pull a weapon until I was at least physically attached. I also do not believe I would draw if I was attacked and hit by one person if they were anywhere near my size,age ect. Now IMO if three guys are actually PHYSICALLY attacking you, Yea I think you would more justified in drawing. That might be a tough thing to do (Draw while taking a beating). Dunno.
And I understand not wanting to report it. They left, he left, no one was harmed. Why bring pain and misery to yourself if it doesn't need to be brought?[/quote]
Something to be said with that. With my position as a public servant I would be inclined to say "report it". But thinking as a normal person I would be inclined to think more along the lines of getting out of the area as fast as safely possible.
Also a point worth noting.
I think the last paragraph is good thinking. If you do report it and you are wrong you MIGHT have a problem. No right or wrong answer unless you are pretty sure you was justified. However, like I posted before,some of these guys think they were justified. Again as a LEO I would say report it. I think some of these guys we are dealing with on some of these incidents did not really think, I think they just acted. People on this thread are obviously thinking people or they wouldn't be on this thing.
A person should/would be fine if they can show that they were in fear of serious bodily injury or death. Then of course we have the newer statute on the carjacking,attack on a dwelling ect. I think the mere verbal threat or suspicious acts will not cut it. A knife within a reasonable distance as well as the persons vocal intent to use it on you and or actions to lead a reasonoble person to think they are going to cut/stab you would most defianntly be a weapons justifiable incident. That does not mean a guy 100 yards away saying he is gonna kill you with his knife. I am thinking someone close enough to use it,someone presenting a knife, not just saying they have one. Only a fool underestimates a knife IMO. They scare me,more than a firearm. Perhaps I am wierd.
THere is no way to go through evey possible senario. I think if a person does what a reasonable person would do under a like circumstance, you should not have a problem.
rep to the OP for being alive to tell us about it. I honestly do not have the answer to that. Myself? I do not believe I would pull a weapon until I was at least physically attached. I also do not believe I would draw if I was attacked and hit by one person if they were anywhere near my size,age ect. Now IMO if three guys are actually PHYSICALLY attacking you, Yea I think you would more justified in drawing. That might be a tough thing to do (Draw while taking a beating). Dunno.
And I understand not wanting to report it. They left, he left, no one was harmed. Why bring pain and misery to yourself if it doesn't need to be brought?[/quote]
Something to be said with that. With my position as a public servant I would be inclined to say "report it". But thinking as a normal person I would be inclined to think more along the lines of getting out of the area as fast as safely possible.
Also a point worth noting.
I think the last paragraph is good thinking. If you do report it and you are wrong you MIGHT have a problem. No right or wrong answer unless you are pretty sure you was justified. However, like I posted before,some of these guys think they were justified. Again as a LEO I would say report it. I think some of these guys we are dealing with on some of these incidents did not really think, I think they just acted. People on this thread are obviously thinking people or they wouldn't be on this thing.
A person should/would be fine if they can show that they were in fear of serious bodily injury or death. Then of course we have the newer statute on the carjacking,attack on a dwelling ect. I think the mere verbal threat or suspicious acts will not cut it. A knife within a reasonable distance as well as the persons vocal intent to use it on you and or actions to lead a reasonoble person to think they are going to cut/stab you would most defianntly be a weapons justifiable incident. That does not mean a guy 100 yards away saying he is gonna kill you with his knife. I am thinking someone close enough to use it,someone presenting a knife, not just saying they have one. Only a fool underestimates a knife IMO. They scare me,more than a firearm. Perhaps I am wierd.
THere is no way to go through evey possible senario. I think if a person does what a reasonable person would do under a like circumstance, you should not have a problem.
