nevermind, bad memory. it went the other way
No, Here is the linkHe got arrested?
Yes, Thats the only fair trade off in situations where an individual is not being an ass. Both parties meet their end of the agreement.
ETA: I misread your question, my original statement was sarcasm as in the reasons would be stupid for a manager to ask you to leave and if thats how they run a business they cant afford for you to not pay.
Was the one you (eventually) found good?
I assume you know that was sarcasm, my friend. I don't really think you're a cheap b. I just couldn't resist since you invited us all to call you one
No, Here is the link
https://www.indianagunowners.com/forums/carry_issues_and_self_defense/124397-bad_dinner_tonight.html
Cops told him he had to pay.
Regardless I still dont think in your situation you should have had to IF you were asked to leave, if you had chosen to leave yes.
I thought of that, too. It may be that only the more boisterous people were willing to post in this thread—and being more boisterous, they were more likely OC and not be inclined to cover up if so requested—while persons such as you two, who would've simply covered up (or not OC'd in the first place, perhaps) tended to keep quiet in here. Definitely possible.
I was thinking some more about this, and I think I came up with a simpler way of explaining it:
Why wouldn't the person want to just cover up if asked? Well, if the person had it openly carried, he probably had a good reason to carry that way. So if somebody else wants him NOT to carry that way, they better be able to give him a better reason in order to make him change his mind.
I was told by our police chief that you should always conceal otherwise it could be considered " brandishing a firearm" .
You can add me to the list of people who would probably just cover it up.
If all I have to do is flip my shirt over it, I'd rather do that then forfeit the meal I'm legally obligated to pay for.
Not technically, Its been discussed before, but IMO you have entered into a contract with that establishment, should they ask you to leave before your meal is finished they broke that contract.
Let me be clear, I don't think mk2ja did anything wrong, I'm just asking questions to add to the discussion...I'd also like to know the answers.
Then never go back if I felt their request was unreasonable(and/or management was being obnoxious about it).
Not necessarily, as I posted before. My local theater doesn't have any posted rules about chewing tobacco and spitting on the floor. If after I enter and pay, I start doing so and refuse to stop when asked, they can demand I leave and not refund my ticket price.
Let me be clear, I think mk2ja did do something wrong. He was informed of the managers desires and decided to push it. The manager may have been a wimp about it, but that doesn't make it right.
A girl says no and repeatedly says no, but doesn't push you off. Does that make sex with her okay?
A girl says no and repeatedly says no, but doesn't push you off. Does that make sex with her okay?
I don't know about most theaters, I was referencing my local one, which if they have that policy it isn't posted. And spitting on the floor, while disgusting, isn't vandalizing. There is no damage being done, it's a concrete floor.I'd say there is a bit of a difference between vandalizing and carrying a tool on your belt...Don't quote me on this, but I'd imagine there is a "no tobacco" policy in most theaters as well.
You are mistaking "asking" with "telling."
The manager never told him to do anything; he asked him.
Restaurant rights - Your rights eating out - consumer.org.nz
Sadly, this site has no laws to back their claims. I'm still looking, but this site backed what I said about changing rules after you're seated...
Again, that falls into a category called being an ass, not minding your own business and enjoying your dinner peacefullyNot necessarily, as I posted before. My local theater doesn't have any posted rules about chewing tobacco and spitting on the floor. If after I enter and pay, I start doing so and refuse to stop when asked, they can demand I leave and not refund my ticket price.
If somebody'd asked me to leave because I was smelly or underdressed, yeah, I would've left without dispute. ... But I never feel awkward or out of place for carrying. (Though I admit there are times I do CC instead of OC because even I think it would be more appropriate—examples: weddings and funerals.) I am comfortable with my sidearm at all times, but I am not always comfortable in sweaty or dirty clothes in a formal setting.
I decry any accusation I was bad-tempered.
I decry any accusation I was hostile or aggressive.
I think the fact that I offered to make a concession to the manager speaks to my reasonableness.
I think finity has mentioned that perhaps the manager decided it wisest to not ask an armed, "apparently unreasonable", man to leave. I would argue that since I had suggested I would leave if he wanted me to leave, that should really eliminate finity's position.
In a restaurant, I am a paying customer. The paying customer does get some say because the establishment which seeks to earn money from the potential customer must, by the principles of economics, provide a service, experience, product, or any combination thereof by which to make the customer willing to pay said establishment, and if the customer is unsatisfied by that service, experience, product, a combination thereof, or the prospect of receiving the same, the customer, on "threat" (Do NOT interpret "threat" as "do this, or I'm not paying;" if you do not understand this difference, I can explain in a separate post.) of not giving money to the establishment, can exact change to make it worth purchasing. This concept is the very basis of a competitive market economy.
A third option exists, though you may be disinclined to consider it among your own options in that scenario. You can also try to get what you, as a customer, want out of your experience. I am sure there are other scenarios wherein you would not discard that option, such as when negotiating the price of some good you'd like to purchase, such as a car or a gun. The difference here is that I was negotiating the service/experience I was going to receive for the money rather than the money I would pay for the good.
Hey, for the sake of this surprisingly cordial discussion, would you mind defining for me what you mean when you refer to little 'r' and big 'R' rights? Maybe it is something you frequently use in your posts, but I'm not altogether clear on your distinction. I've been wondering it basically every time you mentioned it in this thread.
'Preciate it!
I've been on this site for two years and it's like this that wants me to put about 10% of the membership here on my ignore list.
So using your far fetched unfathomable reasoning, the next time a server comes to your table and persistently insists several times that you buy the daily special and you "politely" refuse, stop and think a bit about you being disrespectful to the servers wants and needs in you purchasing that daily special because he/she "wants" you to.
I despise the smoking ban Fort Wayne enacted because it restricts the right ("Right"? Finity, you gotta help me out here, man!) of the property owner to decide what he wants to allow on his own property. The fact that it is open to members of the public does not change that he is (well, *should be*, but no longer is in Fort Wayne) allowed to dictate policy on his property.
If somebody wants to smoke at McDonald's but McDonald's has decided to ban it, the owner has the right to say, "Hey, I don't allow smoking, so either put it out or take it outside."
doing nothing to disturb the peace.
Exactly. Well "said", finity!
A pro-gun manager might very well have decided instead to visit the tables of the complaining customers to explain that the man with the gun was not being offensive, abusive, suspicious, disruptive, or otherwise behaving or appearing in a way to cause alarm or discomfort.
They may very well have replied to that information with, "Well, either tell him to take that gun outside or we're leaving and not paying!"
I did get to educate the friend of my friend about several issues as a result of the events which transpired. Perhaps the manager didn't learn anything other than "that kid with the gun was really stubborn and unreasonable", but my fellow patron learned some aspects of carrying, rights, and law.
Also, I remind you that I did not create a scene. The manager initiated the confrontation, made his request, and I provided my answer. I provided an alternative resolution, but it was declined. Any scene caused was the result of the manager to accept that he could not compel me to cover or disarm for the duration of my visit.
Even if the cops showed up, I would not have covered up or disarmed. The cops are unable to compel a citizen to disarm or carry in a concealed manner in any location unless local, state, or federal law specifies that that location is "gun free" or "CC only". The cops do not have the authority to enforce the rules of a particular private property. By way of example, the cops could no more require me to cover up or disarm at BWW than they could require me to take off my clothes at a nudist colony. In that situation, if I didn't want to undress, the colony's staff would ask me to leave, and if for some reason I refused, THEN the cops would be able to take action.
Indeed. Perhaps the manager shouldn't have thrown a tantrum.
As long as he didn't tell me to leave his restaurant, there's nothing the cops could do (legally, though they would have still tried to "resolve the issue," no doubt).
"OK, we're here. Where's the guy causing trouble?"
"Over there. Be careful! He has a gun!"
"He looks pretty calm. What's he doing to cause problems?"
"He wouldn't take his gun outside or hide it under his shirt!"
"Did you tell him to leave? He doesn't look like he's doing anything illegal or dangerous."
"Well, uh, no. I don't want him to leave. He offered, but I said I wanted him to stay."
"Why the heck did you call us, then?!"
Yeah, yeah, yeah... I doubt it would've gone down that way, too.
Does a demonstration of understanding of rights and economics not betray a level of maturity not found in a child? A youngling unsure of his ability to decide for himself how he wants to carry and unaware of his ability to carry on in a safe, non-threatening manner without yielding to silly requests would have given in, yet my actions are those of a person who has gained a more mature understanding of what can and cannot be done.
As far as the manager, sure he had the right to ask that the firearm be covered. The OP had the right to refuse.
Yup. Apparel does affect impressions. If I'd walked in with super baggy sweat pants and a really loose hoodie jacket with the hood up covering half my face and my gun visible in my waistband, people would no doubt—and I wouldn't argue with them—claim that I had it coming by looking like a common thug, a gangster, a criminal even, who would obviously make other customers uneasy. So I provided information that I was not dressed in such a manner.
Anyone who cannot have a civil conversation devoid of personal attacks or insults will be asked to leave.[
/quote]
So just to be clear:
You are requesting that I be civil here?
Are you sure you have that Right?
You are free to discuss and disagree all you want, but trolling, name-calling, and personal attacks will not be tolerated. As long as you can remain civil, everybody's happy.
Hey, Mr Strato has 1A rights! Doesn’t he?
No need to be personally insulting.
Play nice or go home.
So, are you TRYING to insult half the members of this Forum (OCers) or do you just type before you think?
There's nothing you haven't answered.
The fact that you have remained level-headed through the barrage of insults Mr. Strato has tossed around speaks volumes for both of you.
Someone check to see if the manager's last name is Strato.
Dont I wish
Huh.
Not one person has stood up & gave Strato “kudos” for standing up for his 1A rights & told Scutter he had no Right to tell him otherwise.
Interesting.
As far as not paying (other post) because you are "kicked out", don't do it. It's a violation of the Innkeeper's law (don't know the statute and too lazy to look it up tonight). You can absolutely go to jail for failing to pay a food bill when asked to leave.
Really?
Who’d a thunk it?
You and I could be in the minority, But there are several thousand INGO members, and only a couple of dozen have stuck their necks out and posted in this thread.
I suspect a lot more folks agree with us. But, I really don't know.....
Yeah, I think you’re right. I’ve gotten more positive rep for this thread than I have for any in a LONG time.
I was thinking some more about this, and I think I came up with a simpler way of explaining it:
Why wouldn't the person want to just cover up if asked? Well, if the person had it openly carried, he probably had a good reason to carry that way. So if somebody else wants him NOT to carry that way, they better be able to give him a better reason in order to make him change his mind.
The above is all well & good on public property & I agree.
That all changes on private property that’s not yours.
You can add me to the list of people who would probably just cover it up.
If all I have to do is flip my shirt over it, I'd rather do that then forfeit the meal I'm legally obligated to pay for.
Call me a cheap bastard if you wish, but it would take less than 1 second to cover up, then I could finish my meal and never return if I wish.
I can see you are a mature reasonable person. Thank you.
With all of that being said...IMO, if there isn't a sign in plain site on the front door prohibiting firearms, you shouldn't have to pay when asked to leave. You also shouldn't OC into that establishment anyway(or even give them your business in the first place, for that matter).
Unfortunately, your opinion isn’t law.
nevermind, bad memory. it went the other way
Really?
Who’d a thunk it?
You are mistaking "asking" with "telling."
OK. So as long as they “asked” the girl to have sex & she said no & they did it anyway against her wishes, it’s not rape?
Good to know. I’m sure you’ll tell your daughters that if you ever have any.
I think this is the longest post I've ever written.
And that's saying something!!
I think the fact that I offered to make a concession to the manager speaks to my reasonableness.