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Drawing a pistol - Yeager
- Thread starter Fenway
- Start date
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Dang I hate it when he doesn't say or do something stupid.
If I had to nitpick anything, it would be where he places his non dominant hand. I prefer to have it positioned so that when my hands meet at count three, the gun is under my dominant eye.
If I had to nitpick anything, it would be where he places his non dominant hand. I prefer to have it positioned so that when my hands meet at count three, the gun is under my dominant eye.
Their - Hows that? 
and I drew this one with my left hand too.
Its not good as drawin with my rite hand bu I thawt Id try somthing diferant. I am geting butter then befour.
My eraly stuff did not realy look like pistols at all but all you haveto do is keep prcticing and after a wile, you to can drawl as good as I just did.
I throw all the old drawings away so I cant shouw you those
.
I like the faces ) they make me laff.)
If you wnt to lern , ask me and I wil shouw you houw.
and I drew this one with my left hand too. Its not good as drawin with my rite hand bu I thawt Id try somthing diferant. I am geting butter then befour.
My eraly stuff did not realy look like pistols at all but all you haveto do is keep prcticing and after a wile, you to can drawl as good as I just did.I throw all the old drawings away so I cant shouw you those
.
I like the faces ) they make me laff.)If you wnt to lern , ask me and I wil shouw you houw.
shooter521
Certified Glock Nut
Wow, THREE YEARS to post the second half?
I've seen the verbal command as part of the drawstroke from a few different instructors (some of which have come directly from or been heavily influenced by Yeager/TR), but I'm on the fence about its utility. I understand the reasons for including some kind of verbalization, but if one trains to yell "STOP!" then immediately deliver a burst of rounds on target as seen here, I can also envision the badguy *actually stopping* but still getting smoked because the student didn't take time to assess the effect of his command. That could end very badly from a legal standpoint.
It could be said that the majority of instructors I've trained with have operated under the assumption that if it's time to pull your pistol and go to work, the time for talk is over, and that has generally been my mindset as well. I'd be curious to hear others' thoughts on this, both students and instructors.
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Wow, THREE YEARS to post the second half?
I've seen the verbal command as part of the drawstroke from a few different instructors (some of which have come directly from or been heavily influenced by Yeager/TR), but I'm on the fence about its utility. I understand the reasons for including some kind of verbalization, but if one trains to yell "STOP!" then immediately deliver a burst of rounds on target as seen here, I can also envision the badguy *actually stopping* but still getting smoked because the student didn't take time to assess the effect of his command. That could end very badly from a legal standpoint.
It could be said that the majority of instructors I've trained with have operated under the assumption that if it's time to pull your pistol and go to work, the time for talk is over, and that has generally been my mindset as well. I'd be curious to hear others' thoughts on this, both students and instructors.
In general I would agree with this. The time we give some kind of command is before you draw your gun when it might do some good to stop the altercation before it goes to guns.
When I took a class with Boone County Sheriff Campbell, I remember him saying that using your pistol is the last resort. The first is to try to get out of the situation...
He did say when you draw that pistol from the holster, there is no turning back, you have already decided that you need to end this threat immediately before you and/or your family dies.
He did say when you draw that pistol from the holster, there is no turning back, you have already decided that you need to end this threat immediately before you and/or your family dies.
I don't know this to be the case, but my guess is that it stems from John Farnam's use of "tape loops".
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9DAu2cgJ3dc
While I won't say that having such an ingrained verbal response just prior to drawing is 100% essential, I can see some upsides to such a practice.
- It clearly establishes your (defensive) role in the melee to those around. "All I know is that guy yelled STOP and then he shot that other guy".
- It has the possibility of resetting the bad guy's OODA loop. He might actually stop.
- It replaces any other less-desirable things you might say under stress.
Certainly I can also think of times when drawing should be done without any verbalization, like when drawing preemptively.
I believe a verbal command to "Stop" is useful while drawing your gun. From a legal perspective, it tends to show that shooting was not your first choice and that you attempted to avoid the necessity to shoot. I say that understanding that when you make the decision to draw your gun you may already have made a decision that you will shoot because you believe that is the only possible way to defend yourself or another person. It is always possible the BG will drop his gun/knife at the verbal command while seeing that you are drawing your weapon and that you will not have to shoot.
When the dust settles and the LEO is asking you what happened, I believe you will be glad you told the BG to 'stop' before you fired a shot. It sure makes it look like you had no other choice.
Remember George Zimmerman was accused of murder even though he was getting the crap beaten out of himself when he shot his assailant. Every little factor in your favor can be helpful in keeping yourself from being some ambitious prosecutor's attempt to ride publicity to the governors mansion.
When the dust settles and the LEO is asking you what happened, I believe you will be glad you told the BG to 'stop' before you fired a shot. It sure makes it look like you had no other choice.
Remember George Zimmerman was accused of murder even though he was getting the crap beaten out of himself when he shot his assailant. Every little factor in your favor can be helpful in keeping yourself from being some ambitious prosecutor's attempt to ride publicity to the governors mansion.
shooter521
Certified Glock Nut
One of the instructors I've trained with who recommended this was an acolyte of Farnam's. Farnam has been in the biz long enough that it's entirely possible Yeager also cribbed it from him.
How long were you trained to pause after yelling "STOP!" to determine whether or not the badguy complied?
What I'm seeing in the video seems awful close to BLAM! BLAM! BLAM! BLAM! "stop or I'll shoot!"
To that, I would add that one needs to practice for that eventuality, as well. IOW, be careful what you make reflexive through repetition in training.
How long were you trained to pause after yelling "STOP!" to determine whether or not the badguy complied?
To that, I would add that one needs to practice for that eventuality, as well. IOW, be careful what you make reflexive through repetition in training.
Most of you guys are a lot more experienced than me, but what would be the legal ramifications if an onlooker only saw you pull your gun and shoot somebody? Evan explained this part very well.
If someone is training to say "Stop!" before pulling their gun, what happens if they don't stop? Will you still have enough time for your brian to process everything that is happening and react with the proper action to possibly save your life? "Stop!" is for me, for all the reasons Evan explained. I want to buy precious milliseconds that may save my life. Would you want to make yelling "Stop!" and waiting to see what happens your reflex?
I would think if you have reason to pull your gun, you MUST then do something to make the person stop doing what they were doing. If they do stop and there wasn't enough time for your mind and body to process and stop from pulling the trigger, there was still cause for the defensive action and now it's up to the lawyer.
shooter521
Certified Glock Nut
Good idea. How 'bout pulling the trigger and putting rounds into the badguy?
What I was getting at in my earlier post re: my prior training is that the time for verbalizing should be BEFORE the gun comes out.
Like the movie line says - "When you have to shoot, shoot. Don't talk."
Yes, use of verbal commands should be practiced - this is yet another place where FoF training excels - but I would caution against making it a reflexive part of your drawstroke, especially if you're not going to take the time to evaluate whether or not it worked.
Yelling stop while drawing your gun to shoot is a trick to gain you and edge in the application of violence. You have already made the decision to draw and shoot. You are no longer reading the situation to see if you should shoot. If the other guy pauses great, and if not I am still executing my plan.
Yeah, this is where I was going.
Shooter, I certainly get what you are saying. It would be good to practice during FoF, but I really don't practice to say "Stop!" for any other reason than to draw and shoot. There are other weapons besides my gun to use if I have time evade, cover or fight.
Yeager cautioned us to not take his training as the gospel, but only a set of tools for our toolbox. He said we can use it or not, but just don't throw them away, just in case we ever need them. I will certainly take what you have said and hopefully can find someone to train with using that method. If you have any suggestions, please pass them along.
shooter521
Certified Glock Nut
Yeah, I get that, but I'm not sure everyone in this thread does. And I still question how THAT would look to observers.
An instructor friend of mine used to tell a great story about verbally resetting an opponent's OODA loop. Basically a badguy got the drop on him with a gun, and my friend was unarmed. He said "hey, don't I know your mother?" And in the split second it took the badguy to process that (no, he didn't know his mother), my buddy took the gun right out of his hand. His will to fight evaporated immediately.
It really depends on many things I think ...
Is there 1 unarmed person getting closer to you or 5 or 6?
Are you a fit young man, a old man with a bad hip or a petite female holding a baby?
Do you have any unarmed fighting skills and martial arts experience?
Do you have any non-lethal weapons on you and do you have enough time to deploy them?
How close are they from you?
I can see some situations where you would still shoot at an unarmed attacker and some other where you would try to avoid it.
An instructor friend of mine used to tell a great story about verbally resetting an opponent's OODA loop. Basically a badguy got the drop on him with a gun, and my friend was unarmed. He said "hey, don't I know your mother?" And in the split second it took the badguy to process that (no, he didn't know his mother), my buddy took the gun right out of his hand. His will to fight evaporated immediately.
Same stuff is taught in Krav Maga for gun disarms.
Like asking "What time is it?" when a robber asks for your wallet or saying something in a foreign language to make the BG go "Wait, what?
"
