Coronavirus II

[BugI02]

4 weeks ago the world was ending and we followed these clowns to literally kill the hottest economy in history ostensibly to save millions of lives. Now the threat keeps getting downgraded every few days and yet we are killing our economy not because of the numbers we are down to now, because of the numbers they were saying a few weeks ago. Do you think for a minute Indiana businesses and workers that lost their jobs would shut down then if the true numbers from now were known? I don't!

They have the public ridiculously scared that they are going to die from Covid-19 and yet reporting I see says that over 85% of fatalities have at least one other major health factor. The healthy adults need to go back to work, we need to adjust to limit exposure to each other, and protect our at risk population. Schools are already shut down leave them shut down. We must get back to work...

It's a more fundamental problem than that, Mike. Too many people don't seem to think they'll ever die and so are not able to face it. They'll drive to work each day because they think they have some control over whether they'll be involved in a fatal accident, although they over estimate that. They're terrified of CV-19 because it seems random and uncontrollable and not all the risk factors are visible and they don't know what to do to mitigate that risk or at what point they've done enough and further behavior mods succumb to diminishing returns. So they go all the way down the rabbit hole

 

[Ziggidy]

well the markets think it's getting better. so do I

WHAT? No doomsday warning? Man, we haven't even peaked yet! Who sold us this schtuff?

 

[BugI02]

Could you expand on this? What is your background? Current occupation? How did you become involved in these calls? What was your input on these models?

I’m asking because you seem to have self-positioned yourself as an expert on this situation and I think if you provided your credentials it would help people to understand where you’re coming from.

Don't succumb to credentialism. You can tell who's on the ball. Read and listen to them all, verify the information as much as possible possible and then form a synthesis from that

 

[JettaKnight]

Who started this "discussion"?

The CCP thanks you for towing the line.

The expression is, "toeing the line" - as if to all line on with your toes on the line.


And can we just stop this stupid argument? Calling it "Wuhan Virus" or "Chinese Flu" isn't racist, but certain is done to make a point.


And pretty much everyone on INGO agrees that China sucks, so let's move on.

 

[BugI02]

Why is it that important what someone calls it? It originated in wuhan.

Correct! It's original and most accurate name was the Wuhan coronavirus

 

[Route 45]

https://www.theindychannel.com/news...ial-urges-pastors-to-find-easter-alternatives

Thank you, Gov. Holcomb.

 

[T.Lex]

"Wuhan" isn't a race. "China" isn't a race.

The people who live along the Ebola river have somehow managed to survive similar disparagement, though I note a distinct lack of virtue signaling when it comes to that particular, eponymous virus. Or Norovirus. Or Zika. Or (shall I go on?)

Well, you left out how Lou Gehrig discovered amyotrophic lateral sclerosis.

 

[T.Lex]

https://www.theindychannel.com/news...ial-urges-pastors-to-find-easter-alternatives

Thank you, Gov. Holcomb.

I caught part of Holcomb's presser yesterday, in which he talked about the symbology and importance of Palm Sunday in the midst of this pandemic. I thought he did a great job. He owned his Christianity, and spoke very well about it, but without a hint (to my ear) of condescension or exclusivity. I wish more politicians could do that.

To his credit, I think his starting point is a genuine faith, rather than something he adopts to achieve a political goal.

 

[GodFearinGunTotin]

Thinking about some of HoosierDoc’s posts with this one....

I had my 6 week checkup after my hernia repair yesterday. The doctor’s office was a ghost town. When asked about if he were doing any other surgeries now: No, was the answer. I’ve got to wonder if/when this will start becoming common place at our local hospitals...

COOKEVILLE HOSPITAL LAYS OFF 400 WORKERS, NOT ENOUGH PATIENTS | Crossville News First

 

[hoosierdoc]

worldometers is not listing new cases by bar graph anymore. That's frustrating.

We were told to expect 177 ICU patients with COVID this week. We have about 40.

 

[chipbennett]

https://www.theindychannel.com/news...ial-urges-pastors-to-find-easter-alternatives

Thank you, Gov. Holcomb.

No Governor has the enumerated authority to override the will of the people, as expressed in the First Amendment.

No matter how imprudent church gatherings might be, the state cannot infringe upon freedom of religious exercise.

 

[BugI02]

Calling it "the wuhan virus" accomplishes at least two negative things:

1. It makes the conversation less precise.
2. It disparages a group of victims as though Covid-19 was their fault.

I can't come up with any positive.

Yeah, it's a small thing. But why try to be abrasive about stuff like this? Conservatives are regularly labeled as racists; why give more ammo to the opposition for nothing gained?

1 Incorrect. Unless you believe the story that the US Army carried it there where it got into the general population (before anyplace else in the world, too), then it is most precise to say the virus originated in Wuhan, Hubei province, PRC

2 Until it is conclusively ascertained where and how this virus jumped to humans, it may indeed be their fault through their propensity to eat such a wide variety of phyla and failure to use best hygiene practices while doing so. If they are in turn victims, then it may be because of the actions of their government, both local and national, either carelessly studying such viruses in a way that allowed them to escape and/or valuing secrecy in controlling the outbreak more than it valued the 'victim's' lives

I cannot come up with any positive for joining the chorus seeking to obscure or obfuscate the very real responsibility for this outbreak. It just seems like spreading propaganda. Not sure who or what is being abraded if this is abrasive, I don't think feels require much grit

 

[Route 45]

No Governor has the enumerated authority to override the will of the people, as expressed in the First Amendment.

No matter how imprudent church gatherings might be, the state cannot infringe upon freedom of religious exercise.

Oh, but government most certainly can infringe on rights under certain circumstances. No right is absolute.

 

[printcraft]

The expression is, "toeing the line" - as if to all line on with your toes on the line.

 

[jsharmon7]

Don't succumb to credentialism. You can tell who's on the ball. Read and listen to them all, verify the information as much as possible possible and then form a synthesis from that

I don’t disagree with your approach, but sources absolutely matter. Am I reading opinions from some guy who just googles things and posts the ones that support his worldview, or does this person have direct knowledge? IMHO, I’m putting a lot more stock in what HoosierDoc is seeing from the frontlines than any mathematical model you can present. If people learn anything from this situation, I hope it’s that experts matter more than Karen on Facebook and her rambling “research.” I have spoken to SM via PM, so he hasn’t ignored my questions. I just think credentials matter very much in these situations.

 

[T.Lex]

I don’t disagree with your approach, but sources absolutely matter. Am I reading opinions from some guy who just googles things and posts the ones that support his worldview, or does this person have direct knowledge? IMHO, I’m putting a lot more stock in what HoosierDoc is seeing from the frontlines than any mathematical model you can present. If people learn anything from this situation, I hope it’s that experts matter more than Karen on Facebook and her rambling “research.” I have spoken to SM via PM, so he hasn’t ignored my questions. I just think credentials matter very much in these situations.

In case you were wondering, my credentials as a statistical epidemiologist consist of having been buried in ice for thousands of years, only to be unfrozen in this confusing modern era.

 

[qwerty]

worldometers is not listing new cases by bar graph anymore. That's frustrating.

We were told to expect 177 ICU patients with COVID this week. We have about 40.

Wow, wonder why they did that? Was a good visualization. Will throw something together when I get back. Enjoying the sunshine at the lake right now.

 

[chipbennett]

Oh, but government most certainly can infringe on rights under certain circumstances. No right is absolute.

I don't seem to find an "unless the state claims infringement is required in response to a pandemic" exception in the text of the first amendment.

That said, I'll play along, and pretend that "strict scrutiny" is a constitutionally valid method of determining when the state can act in otherwise unconstitutional ways. Please justify the state compelling the prohibition of religious gatherings, under strict scrutiny.

 

[nonobaddog]

But the closer we get to using CoVid 19 as a default cause of death, specified when a patient meets any, some or all of the symptom profile, the larger the confidence window becomes on the most solid datum absent widespread testing. Not only does that complicate modeling, but it allows space for political games to be played to downplay or hype the seriousness of the events, needed levels of response and support for onerous restrictions

Maybe we already are, but I would think whatever criteria were used to assign cause of death in previous bad flu epidemics should be used now, especially since it would likely make comparison to previous outbreaks more meaningful and relevant

My point was I am OK using COVID-19 as the cause of death instead pneumonia when it is COVID-19 induced pneumonia and instead of suffocation when it is COVID-19 induced suffocation. It is pretty normal to use the disease as the cause of death instead of the specific final layer of failure.

I think a default cause of death is a phony thing. They should have at least most of the COVID-19 symptoms and better yet all of the COVID-19 symptoms as well as a positive test before naming the cause of death as COVID-19. However this is where the problem starts. There is still limited testing being done in some places and the lack of a positive test raises questions on the validity of the determination. I would guess at least some flu deaths and some pneumonia deaths are being attributed to COVID-19 because of the lack of testing. I don't think 100% complete testing or autopsies are a realistic option. I do not have a canned answer for this situation. I believe they are required to put something down.

I do not know what they have done in past outbreaks. I agree it would be good to do something very similar to the past provided what they did in the past made some sense, while also allowing for evolution of the process when that makes sense. Unfortunately political games are more pervasive than they used to be and, like it or not, the reality is they are probably playing a part in this whole mess. As we go down this path I bet there are more doctors and coroners being influenced by their political views and expressing them in their determinations. If so, that is sad and a bit sick.

 

[HoughMade]

No Governor has the enumerated authority to override the will of the people, as expressed in the First Amendment.

No matter how imprudent church gatherings might be, the state cannot infringe upon freedom of religious exercise.

I believe that as long as the EO is neutral to religion in its language and application, it is likely legal.