CIVIL RELIGIOUS DISCUSSION: All things Christianity

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    foszoe

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    For the last few weeks, we've been studying the Psalms during a Wednesday night bible studies. I was something like Psalms 56, 57, one of those in through there this week where David is asking God to strike down his enemies, etc. The one thing I don't like about the way we're doing these studies is that, for some reason we don't get a lot of people asking questions. I don't know if it's the way the room is set up or if the crowd is too big and people are reluctant to ask questions or what. But anyway, I'd noticed during many of these Psalms (not just the ones we were looking at that night) that there is this pleading for God to not just help the Psalmist win out over his enemies but pleading for death and destruction of them. So I asked the pastor (paraphrasing) "I've read where some encourage us to pray the Psalms but how do we do that when the Psalmist is praying counter to Jesus' message?" (which is well described in your quote).

    Basically everyone agreed with the above. But this demonstrates the difficulty and the complexity of simply reading the Bible and not considering the effects of the "new covenant" on the old law. And I can see why things are so misunderstood.

    Praying the Psalms. The psalms were prayed by the Jews and Christianity continued that practice to this day. In Monasteries, the Psalter is prayed through once a week. During Lent this is increased to twice a week. Bishops, prior to ordination, are supposed to be able to quote the Psalms by heart. ( I am not sure I would want to test them, but that is the standard).

    In our practice, the Psalms is organized into 20 Kathisma with each Kathisma consisting of 3 Stasis.

    For example, Kathisma I is Psalms 1-8. Stasis 1 is 1-3, Stasis 2 is 4-6, and Stasis 3 is 7,8. In between each Stasis, short prayers are said.

    Here is an online website to see as an example.

    The Dynamic Horologion And Psalter : Single Kathisma 1

    and here is the weekly schedule from the same website.

    The Dynamic Horologion And Psalter : Psalter Schedule

    As you can see one Kathisma is read in the evening and two in the morning.

    That is the liturgical structure to Praying the Psalms, but understanding "how" to pray them as a Christian can be another story.

    First we must see Christ in EVERY Psalm. So how can we do this?

    Take Psalm 1 for example. Often this is read as a list of blessings for the Righteous man. Take up your bible and read it again, or quote it from memory BUT this time read it in the way the the Church Fathers interpreted the text. the Man is the Lord Jesus Christ not you or me. This transforms our understanding. We see the Psalm as the way Jesus lived his life and how we are called to live, but JESUS should be seen as the focus! Psalm 1 describes the entirety of Jesus life.

    Then we prayerfully meditate on Him. For me the Psalm becomes like the hymn, "O to be Like Him!"

    In my bible, I made a margin note sometime in the past for vs 3 referring back to Creation. How everything in creation produced fruit after its own Kind and in its season EXCEPT for man after the fall. That man, Adam, is me, fallen. But the Man in vs 3 does what? produces fruit in season! How glorious are thy works oh Lord in wisdom thou has made them all!

    Take that example and see if it sheds any light.

    Without knowing your specific Psalm but using the ones you mentioned, and using the first rule of Biblical interpretation for us, I look to see where those Psalms are used in the Church services. Psalm 54 and 55 are prayed daily at the 6th hour, the hour of crucifixion. They are Psalms dealing with betrayal and crucifixion. Pray/read them with this in mind.

    An example of the 6th hour usage can be found here.

    The Dynamic Horologion And Psalter : The Sixth Hour

    Finally, a word to how to "pray" enemies. The testimony of the early church on this thunderous. When reading the Psalms almost universally the interpretation is to give the meaning of our passions and sins to the word enemies.

    "When my enemies rise up against me...." -> Temptation is strong....

    PS 56:3 for example is a GREAT passage for this. It could be our own passions and sins or could refer to demonic activity.

    Also I just noted the phrase there, "War against me from on high". Where are we supposed to reside as Christians? In our Hearts, not in our heads. An ancient practice is to bring the mind/reason/brain down into the heart. End the WAR against ourselves. The one which St Paul alluded to, what I want to do I do not do etc... How often is our own mind (from on high), our own worst enemy? How often do we rationalize our actions and justify not doing what we know to be right? O Lord purify my nous (scriptural term for heart and mind working together). Bring the mind down into the heart. So thank you for helping me pray PS 56:3 today.

    Christ is Ascended!

    From Earth to Heaven!
     

    foszoe

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    I am with your gut reaction. YHWH God was the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob long before the Torah was written.

    That's an interesting concept.

    My gut reaction is to disagree (yeah, maybe I protest too much, too). ;)

    I mean, God existed before the Bible. And, assuming an end to humanity at some point in the future, He will exist after.

    God gave us the Bible to know Him, as best we can. It is both an invitation to Him and an instruction manual. But, his existence does not depend on the Bible. The Bible's existence depends on Him.

    Otherwise, this seems like a variation of Voltaire. If God had not created man (and the Bible), man surely would have created Him (and the Bible).
     

    foszoe

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    The Bible is a revelation of God.

    Semantic? :)

    I like Semantics if they involve definite articles.

    On the latter point, I think there is an INGO consensus (or as close as INGO can get) that is true. The Bible is the revelation of God.

    But, your first point, is only true (IMHO) with regard to the beliefs of man. God existed everywhere, even in places where He was not known, and where people did not believe in Him. Those humans had gods because they were unaware of God.

    But that does not mean that He only existed because the Truth was revealed. He existed, even if He was not known.

    Granted, I may be parsing your comments too thinly. If so, I don't mean to. I'm just trying to understand where you're coming from on this.

    If you are saying without the Bible, mankind would continue to have many gods, that's probably true. Heck, its basically true in secular areas even today.
     

    foszoe

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    That seems like two questions so I will treat it as such.

    The Holy Spirit may indeed speak to us things that wouldn't be verifiable with the written word just as He did in so many instances that later came to be added to the written word and in the countless instances that were not and never will be included in the written word.

    If it contradicted the nature or principle of that which was included, I would scrutinize it rigorously, determined to either reconcile and harmonize it with the written word or identify it as not from the Holy Spirit at all, but possibly just a product of my own selfish scheming or worse, some twisted attempt to deceive.

    I would just offer to take it one step further, at least for myself, discuss it with other Holy People, for me, a Spiritual Father, A monk, brothers in Christ.
     

    foszoe

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    Simplistically, I would say we should use whatever is available. If scripture is available, then it should be used. If an illiterate man has a revelation of Jesus, through conscious or nature or other some such, who am i to judge that? But if I have 10 Bible versions laying around the house and then claim a revelation that contradicts all 10 but don't take the time to "check it out" well to whom much is given much will be required.

    Do you believe you can access Christ outside of scripture, or to use the same word, revelation?

    Your first response paragraph would indicate that you do.
    However, your second paragraph describes how you would scrutinize such a thing against scripture. To "know ' in a "Jesus" that is apart from scripture would be a slippery slope. He suddenly can become whatever you wanted him to be.
     

    ATM

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    I would just offer to take it one step further, at least for myself, discuss it with other Holy People, for me, a Spiritual Father, A monk, brothers in Christ.

    Not even a step further, it is a necessary component of scrutinizing our own beliefs continuously. I am my brothers' keeper and they are mine.

    Is that a plank in my eye? Help me identify and get past it, brother, that I might become better equipped to do the same for you and others.

    Where two or more are gathered in His name, there He is found, in the relation, in the connection.
     

    ATM

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    moved to appropriate thread

    To be honest people do that in every religion.
    It's true with Islam, Judaism or Christianity.
    I don't know many Christians who avoid wearing clothes made of blended fabrics because the Bible says so.

    Are you a bad Christian if your T-shirt is made of 70% polyester and 30% cotton?

    I know, like you said it's not the right thread for that.

    Going back to touch on this a bit:

    There are many Hebrew rituals that Christians should examine more thoroughly than simply dismissing.

    The truth to be discovered is often in the moral and ethical lessons, or some aspect of God's nature which was being revealed to them and displayed during the actual events signified in the ritual (which is itself, primarily a reminder of that which was learned, whether or not the ritual may serve some other purpose on the surface).

    There are further levels of depth in everything recorded to be searched out as precious treasure. Stop fumbling about at the surface thinking that's all there is to God's historical interactions in leading one nation, and His ongoing interactions with all of mankind.

    Let us reason together and spur one another to greater intimacy, understanding and application of God's love for all.
     

    T.Lex

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    Let us reason together and spur one another to greater intimacy, understanding and application of God's love for all.
    Oy vey. Gimme a break.

    But, if you're serious...
    Perhaps you stop short of searching for or determining reasonable cases for claims whenever you are told something is simply a "mystery". Perhaps i don't.

    Put forth the reasonable case for Christianity's truth without relying on 1) the Bible or 2) any teachings derived from the Bible.

    Thx.
     

    ATM

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    T.Lex

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    ATM

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    Ah, right, as a nihilist, you can only tear down others.

    This is the right place for a positive argument in favor of the "reasonable case" for Christianity, interactive or otherwise.

    Can you or can you not?

    Jump in, the water's fine and I'm far more prepared than you. I can, I do, I am.
     

    T.Lex

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    Is this challenge open?

    If so my wife is going to be pissed!

    Well, I haven not consulted with your wife, so I offer no opinion on that. :)

    Alas, no. I mean, the thread is open for any to offer their beliefs. I have a strong faith (or at least I think so) :) so this isn't an expression of doubt. Rather, it is a specific challenge for ATM to be consistent. Which, when I type those words out, seems more than a little absurd.
     

    ATM

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    Well, I haven not consulted with your wife, so I offer no opinion on that. :)

    Alas, no. I mean, the thread is open for any to offer their beliefs. I have a strong faith (or at least I think so) :) so this isn't an expression of doubt. Rather, it is a specific challenge for ATM to be consistent. Which, when I type those words out, seems more than a little absurd.

    More than a little, yes. ;)
     

    foszoe

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    REFLECTION
    [FONT=&amp]The Word of God is food for the soul. The Word of God is both power and light for the soul. He who reads the Word of God gives food, power and light to his soul. He who can, should read the Word of God in Holy Scripture and he who cannot should listen to him who reads Holy Scripture. All the saints emphasized the benefit of reading Holy Scripture. St. Seraphim of Sarov says: "The soul should be provided with the Word of God for the Word of God, as Gregory the Theologian says, is the bread of angels which feeds the soul that is hungry for God. But, above all, one should read the New Testament and the Psalter. From this proceeds illumination of the mind... It is very beneficial to read the Word of God in solitude and to read the entire Bible with understanding. For such a practice, above other good deeds, the Lord gives His mercy to man and fills him with the gift of understanding. When man provides his soul with the Word of God then he is filled with understanding of what is good and what is evil."


    [/FONT]
    [FONT=&amp]The above is a quote from St Nicholai Velimirovic (20 century). On its surface I find it illustrative of how tradition works in the Church. It was written by a man who was later canonized as a saint quoting St Seraphim (19th century) who is quoting Saint Gregory the Theologian (4th century) to support his position! This is the Holy Spirit working through the Church!

    As I thought about this quote, I thought about how "powerful" it is.

    Food provides the fuel for all of our activities. Without food, I do not have the energy to accomplish anything great, much less to carry out my day to day activities. How often do I fast from this food? How often do I take this food into my mouth then spit it out? For even if I set aside time daily to read God's word, do I take the time to meditate upon it? To digest it? To allow it to become part of my flesh, my bone, my mind? If I do not, then I am just performing a daily routine. Rinsing out my mouth like a daily gargle then spitting it back out, not using scripture as food but whitewashing myself to appear clean to others. The food provides me with the power to do. This power, even from this spiritual food, can be for good or evil.

    How can this most noble of foods, be used as power for evil or to empower evil?

    When I use what I have learned to let others know how smart I am. If I use what I have learned not to build up my fellow man but to denigrate and belittle others who think or see things differently. When I fail to see that I must decrease so that He will increase. Christ in His humility emptied himself and so must I. Christ publicly rebuked the religious leaders but showed great compassion to the multitude. When correcting His disciples, he pulled them aside. When taking the salvation history of the bible in its entirety and especially the work of Christ himself, I see Christ as using successive approximations to get me to where I belong. He mercifully condescends to meet me where I am. Peter's reconciliation clearly demonstrates our Lord's willingness to start with where I am.

    If I use this food to cause strife among fellow Christians, I can be a cause of stumbling. Our Lord says "Let your yay be yay and your nay be nay". Even in disagreement, I must recognize that others are created in the image and likeness of God regardless if they are Muslim, Jew, Buddhist, Hindu, Sikh or if they are black, brown, yellow, white. For who changes the heart of man? Is it I? Is it my abilities? Or is it the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit? For who judges the heart of a man? Is it I? God forbid! when I go before God at the judgement, I will not want justice but mercy and the surest way to obtain God's mercy is to be merciful, not by my own power but by allowing God's mercy to flow through me.

    How can I ensure that this power is used correctly?

    Tomorrow, upon awaking, keep your eye's closed. Rise from your bed and complete your entire morning routine in this manner. Make your coffee, take your shower, brush your teeth, fix and eat your breakfast. Only once you are in your car with the ignition started open your eyes. Impossible dare I say? So too it is with the word of God for as the Ethiopian found out, it is hard to understand unless someone ELSE helps me. I may have the energy, I may have the power, but without illumination, what can I accomplish? Try assembling your next unassembled purchase in the dark. LIGHT!

    Now try the same morning routine, but with someone to guide you, not do for you but to guide you with their voice and holding your hand. Even then life is perilous for we are warned of the Blind leading the Blind! But let us say we choose wisely tomorrow morning and we choose someone who can see. But let us say this person is a visitor to our home. Unfamiliar but able to see clearly. We can envision there will be many pauses in our morning journey as our helper also realizes that even with light there are some things that prove difficult. This is where I am. In my love for my brother, sometimes my zeal overtakes my ability. Things that are clear to me, I am unable to relate to another. I become frustrated that what I understand and see so clearly seems so opaque to another. How can they not see the light? Why do they hesitate? It is so obvious what needs to be done.

    Let's say the third morning we pick another guide. One Who knows where the toothpaste is. Who is familiar with where all our clothes are hidden. Who knows which cupboard contains the coffee mug and where to find the coffee. Who knows the condition of our house inside and out. Can you imagine how smooth this morning would be compared to the last two?

    Jesus Christ knows each of us intimately. He knows every thought, every action and every intention, past, present and future. He is the Word of God and when He lights up our path then inasmuch as our vision coincides with His vision of us, we are illumined and walking in the light.

    How can we know this is occurring in our lives?

    [/FONT]
    Galatians 5:22-23Amplified Bible (AMP)


    22 But the fruit of the Spirit [the result of His presence within us] is love [unselfish concern for others], joy, [inner] peace, patience [not the ability to wait, but how we act while waiting], kindness, goodness, faithfulness, 23 gentleness, self-control. Against such things there is no law.
    [FONT=&amp]

    But who is the judge of this? Ultimately it's Christ, but going back to the beginning, who is the icon of Christ? It is the person in the other room, getting dressed and ready for their day, it is the neighbor I wave to as I leave the house, it is the person who greets me as I walk in a place of business. It is the person at the other keyboard reading my post. It is my fellow Christian. Are they seeing the fruit of the Spirit in my life? If so give the glory to God for all things, but IF they offer rebuke. Perhaps it is time for me to repent. To recognize that my own sinfulness is wounding another.

    In Protestant writings, I seldom see this type of appeal to tradition because of the denial of tradition as a viable source. In most Bibliographies the works cited are relatively recent. Especially in the academic circles where coming up with new ways of interpretation and defending them seems to be the norm.

    One priest was teaching Scriptural interpretation at Colorado Christian University. A job he was surprised to get when during the interview he was asked if he believed the Bible to be the inerrant, infallible word and God and he replied "No". Anyway, he was teaching his class to a group of advanced theology students and Fr. Evan told them of a time when he wrote an article in the bulletin and the following week received a call from his Bishop telling (not suggesting or asking) him to retract the article so he did. The students were incredulous that he didn't attempt a vigorous defense of his position and why he was right.

    Of course, after a year or 2, Evan was run out of the school by zealous parents who objected to his teaching. Orthodox get run out of lots of places, seminaries, colleges, radio programs, and bible institutes! :)




    [/FONT]
     

    BugI02

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    Well, I haven not consulted with your wife, so I offer no opinion on that. :)

    Alas, no. I mean, the thread is open for any to offer their beliefs. I have a strong faith (or at least I think so) :) so this isn't an expression of doubt. Rather, it is a specific challenge for ATM to be consistent. Which, when I type those words out, seems more than a little absurd.


    Do you hear an english-accented voice in your mind, saying "It's only a flesh wound. I've had worse" ? :)
     

    JettaKnight

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    Put forth the reasonable case for Christianity's truth without relying on 1) the Bible or 2) any teachings derived from the Bible.

    Thx.
    If I had to, I'd resort to these things:
    • The created world
    • External evidence about Jesus (Jewish and secular writing)
    • The changed lives of living persons I know
    • The historical deeds of the church
     

    ArcadiaGP

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    If I had to, I'd resort to these things:
    • The created world
    • External evidence about Jesus (Jewish and secular writing)
    • The changed lives of living persons I know
    • The historical deeds of the church

    1. While it is a marvel, I can't see any proof in the ground we stand on that Christianity explained it with 100% accuracy.
    2. This is probably one of the stronger topics, since he definitely existed and stories were told of him.
    3. Not to discount them, but this is anecdotal.
    4. Good (and bad) things are done in the name of religion by many churches. No one thing done by the Churches validate Christianity's case.
     

    foszoe

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    Wow. I spent awhile typing that last message and didn't see all the activity from this morning!

    I will just say this on reason for now.....or rather let someone else say it and implore you that is beg you to read it. At least the first paragraph!

    The Relationship Between Faith and Reason In Orthodoxy | MYSTAGOGY RESOURCE CENTER

    In the Church, the relationship between reason and faith is completely different from their relationship in the Latin and Protestant confessions. The difference is this: in the Church, Divine Revelation and human thought are not confused. The boundaries between the Divine and the human are transgressed neither by science nor by Church teaching. However much believing reason strives to reconcile reason and faith, it would never mistake any dogma of Revelation for a simple conclusion of reason and would never attribute the authority of revealed dogma to a conclusion of reason. The boundaries stand firm and inviolable. No patriarch, no synod of bishops, no profound consideration of the scholar, no authority, no impulse of so-called public opinion at any time could add a new dogma or alter an existing one, or ascribe to it the authority of Divine Revelation — representing in this manner the explanation of man’s reason as the sacred teaching of the Church or projecting the authority of eternal and steadfast truths of Revelation into the realm of systematic knowledge subject to development, change, errors, and the separate conscience of each individual. Every extension of Church teaching beyond the limits of Holy Tradition leaves the realm of Church authority and becomes a private opinion — more or less respectable, but still subject to the verdict of reason. No matter whose this new opinion might be, if it is not recognised by former ages — even the opinion of a whole people or of the greater part of all Christians at a given time — if it attempts to pass for a Church dogma, by this very claim excludes itself from the Church. For the Church does not limit its self-consciousness to any particular epoch, however much this epoch might consider itself more rational than any former. The sum total of all Christians of all ages, past and present, comprises one indivisible, eternal, living assembly of the faithful, held together just as much by the unity of consciousness as through the communion of prayer.
     
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