CIVIL RELIGIOUS DISCUSSION: All things Christianity

[gregr]

From Islam thread,


These can be interpreted as one in purpose and that he, as a prophet and a messenger, is the way to his Lord. (Click on the links above for detailed explanations. (That's how Unitarian Christians interpret them too))

That interpretation would be erroneous.

 

[gregr]

From Islam thread


The descendants of Ishmael, according to Genesis, are chosen by God to be a great nation:

"through Isaac shall your descendants be named. And I will make a nation of the son of the slave woman [Ishmael] also, because he is your offspring." (Genesis 21:13-14)

Abraham had left Hagar and their newborn, Ishmael in Paran...

"when the water in the skin was gone, she cast the child under one of the bushes. Then she went, and sat down over against him a good way off, about the distance of a bow shot; for she said, "Let me not look upon the death of the child." And as she sat over against him, the child lifted up his voice and wept. And God heard the voice of the lad; and the angel of God called to Hagar from heaven, and said to her, "What troubles you, Hagar? Fear not;for God has heard the voice of the lad where he is. Arise, lift up the lad, and hold him fast with your hand; for I will make him a great nation." (Genesis 21:15-18)

Not clear on what the point here is. The descendants of Abraham are the chosen people of God. Those from the people of Ishmael, the Arabs, have a perverse doctrine, and do not follow the Bible of the Jews and Gentiles. That is why there is the conflict that exists in the Middle East.

 

[gregr]

On a much more positive note: it is Vacation Bible School, (VBS) time! Get those children enrolled and not only allow them to have some wholesome, good, fun, but be trained up in healthy, godly precepts!

 

[JettaKnight]

From the Islam thread:

We are on the same page, but we probably aren't going to make any progress with this approach, much as Paul preached eloquently at Mars Hill but didn't gain a single believer.

Going around and telling folks they don't worship the real God isn't speaking the Truth in love. Condemnation and chastisement may technically correct, it's not winning over the hearts and minds. Better to use love and compassion and win folks to Christianity and not away from their other religion.

We can also to to Jesus as much as to Paul for inspiration in soul winning. A little bit of cultural understanding and connection (e.g. "we both worship Allah!") can go a long way in a dialog. It's a way to show a person you love them, and that's not shown when your first words are condemnation about the god they've been worshiping their entire life.

 

[hog slayer]

Can the bible be proven?

These characteristics would NEED to be true. Not that they COULDN'T also be true of a human authored book.

It would claim to be God’s Word.
It would be historically accurate when it speaks on historicalmatters.
Its authors would be trustworthy.
It would be thematically unified and withoutcontradictions.
We would have received accurate copies of the originalmanuscripts.

Second, because God is unique, His book would bearcharacteristics that could be true of it alone. Suchcharacteristics would distinguish God’s book from all otherbooks in such a way that it could not be counterfeited. Thesecharacteristics would include the following:

It would make statements that would reveal knowledgeabout the way things work beyond the knowledge of its day.
It would make predictions about the future that could not beknown through natural means.
The message would be unique.
The messengers would be confirmed by miracles.
The words would have a transforming power.

 

[T.Lex]

Our Pentecost mass coincided with the first mass for a new priest. Very neat symbolism.

The second reading was from Corinthians, which prompted me to re-visit that chapter.

I do not want you to be uninformed. 2 You know that when you were pagans, you were enticed and led astray to idols that could not speak. 3 Therefore I want you to understand that no one speaking by the Spirit of God ever says “Let Jesus be cursed!” and no one can say “Jesus is Lord” except by the Holy Spirit.

4 Now there are varieties of gifts, but the same Spirit; 5 and there are varieties of services, but the same Lord; 6 and there are varieties of activities, but it is the same God who activates all of them in everyone. 7 To each is given the manifestation of the Spirit for the common good. 8 To one is given through the Spirit the utterance of wisdom, and to another the utterance of knowledge according to the same Spirit, 9 to another faith by the same Spirit, to another gifts of healing by the one Spirit, 10 to another the working of miracles, to another prophecy, to another the discernment of spirits, to another various kinds of tongues, to another the interpretation of tongues. 11 All these are activated by one and the same Spirit, who allots to each one individually just as the Spirit chooses.

 

[historian]

Our Pentecost mass coincided with the first mass for a new priest. Very neat symbolism.

The second reading was from Corinthians, which prompted me to re-visit that chapter.

Was it lit?

 

[historian]

We are actually considering leaving our church (for a myriad of reasons), and one alternate we have identified is Calvinist. Ugh.

So on a personal note. Yesterday we began attendance at a new church. We "walked off the cliff" at the old one the end of last month (not in a bad way, but a good way, see here: https://blogs.thegospelcoalition.org/kevindeyoung/2012/05/25/how-to-leave-your-old-church/). It is both discomforting and exciting at the same time. We are at peace with the decision, but are still quite nervous about the whole thing.

 

[T.Lex]

Was it lit?

Ok, I'm smiling because of the emoji, but I have no clue to what you refer.

 

[historian]

Ok, I'm smiling because of the emoji, but I have no clue to what you refer.

Here you go grandpa: Urban Dictionary: Lit

And it was a joke about Pentecost (the tongues of fire...)

 

[T.Lex]

Here you go grandpa: Urban Dictionary: Lit

And it was a joke about Pentecost (the tongues of fire...)

Ah - right.

As a parent of teenagers, I'd heard that usage, but was REALLY struggling with whether that was the intended meaning in this context, in this forum.

One other thing that was kinda cool about the mass (speaking of translations) - the new priest was of Vietnamese descent, with several of his extended family having entered the priesthood or taken their final vows. A female relative of his, in full habit, read the first reading, (Acts 2:1-11 or so) in which all who heard the Gospel understood it in their own tongue. Another neat twist on both Pentecost and a freshly-ordained priest's first mass.

 

[foszoe]

Today is Holy Spirit day.

Our gospel reading was Matt 18:20-20. Matthew 18 NASB

Brought up a couple of questions. An old one that goes on and on ad nauseum and one born of curiosity.

First. Free will vs predestined. I am sure there is a standard response so I figured I would ask.

When the one sheep goes astray, the shepherd leaves the 99 in search of the 1. Verse 14 says that the Father does not will that one of these little ones should perish. Verse 13 says IF the man finds the one that went astray, there will be rejoicing. How would predestinators interpet?

Second, do Protestants in general believe that at Pentecost, those things granted to the disciples are granted to all believers?

Finally, for Roman Catholics and Orthodox, the final step in church discipline is excommunication. How us this practiced in Protestantism? Specifically, if a member if one congregation is kicked out but is accepted at the church down the street who knew of the turmoil, how would 17 be fulfilled in this instance?

 

[historian]

Second, do Protestants in general believe that at Pentecost, those things granted to the disciples are granted to all believers?

Finally, for Roman Catholics and Orthodox, the final step in church discipline is excommunication. How us this practiced in Protestantism? Specifically, if a member if one congregation is kicked out but is accepted at the church down the street who knew of the turmoil, how would 17 be fulfilled in this instance?

I will take care of these two for the mainline Protestants. I am not chosen to answer the first one

We generally believe that what happened at Pentecost happened to all believers at that time (as few as there were, they were probably all in the upper room at the time).

We are also getting back to excommunication. Church discipline has been severely lacking in many protestant churches. However, many younger members are starting to see the benefit. What that means in practicality is a bit different. If your church doesn't do a "background" check before you become a member, that is on them. Many churches are going to interviews/applications for membership where prior membership is being asked. The odd thing is that with changing churches, we just resigned our membership at our prior church and are looking to become members at the church we decided to go to. The new church has a six week class in which much of this is brought up.

 

[T.Lex]

Today is Holy Spirit day.

Our gospel reading was Matt 18:20-20. Matthew 18 NASB

Brought up a couple of questions. An old one that goes on and on ad nauseum and one born of curiosity.

First. Free will vs predestined. I am sure there is a standard response so I figured I would ask.

When the one sheep goes astray, the shepherd leaves the 99 in search of the 1. Verse 14 says that the Father does not will that one of these little ones should perish. Verse 13 says IF the man finds the one that went astray, there will be rejoicing. How would predestinators interpet?

I sense this wasn't directed at me, but my approach is thus: the sheep chose to either walk away or put himself on a path that led away. He could always choose to come back, but the Lord also actively seeks ways to put the sheep back on a path to Him.

Thematically, more like the prodigal son.

Second, do Protestants in general believe that at Pentecost, those things granted to the disciples are granted to all believers?

Do you mean the gifts? Our readings somewhat more emphasized that the Holy Spirit decides who gets what gifts. They are "available" to all, but not "delivered" to all.

Finally, for Roman Catholics and Orthodox, the final step in church discipline is excommunication. How us this practiced in Protestantism? Specifically, if a member if one congregation is kicked out but is accepted at the church down the street who knew of the turmoil, how would 17 be fulfilled in this instance?

Color me curious, too.

 

[Benp]

Predestination and free will are mutually exclusive.

 

[T.Lex]

Predestination and free will are mutually exclusive.

Depends on definitions.

A tornado might be predestined to hit a community. How the individual members of the community respond is free will.

People might find themselves in situations that are predestined to occur, perhaps with the aid of people following God's path for them - choosing by free will to act in accordance with God's will. How an individual believer behaves is a product of their own free will.

 

[historian]

Depends on definitions.

A tornado might be predestined to hit a community. How the individual members of the community respond is free will.

People might find themselves in situations that are predestined to occur, perhaps with the aid of people following God's path for them - choosing by free will to act in accordance with God's will. How an individual believer behaves is a product of their own free will.

I love the fact that T. is now fully engaged in the free will/predestination fight. This thread did something right.

 

[Benp]

Depends on definitions.

A tornado might be predestined to hit a community. How the individual members of the community respond is free will.

People might find themselves in situations that are predestined to occur, perhaps with the aid of people following God's path for them - choosing by free will to act in accordance with God's will. How an individual believer behaves is a product of their own free will.

I agree, but don't agree with you. How people respond and react to things is always free will. God wants us to choose to love Him and follow His commandments (which is how we show that we love Him). I don't think anything is predestined. I think there are things that are prophesied to happen and those things will be fulfilled, but by choice.

 

[gregr]

Predestination and free will are mutually exclusive.

Not if you`re a Calvinist

 

[HoughMade]

Southern Baptists Vote To Affirm Inerrancy Of Second Amendment

“By choosing to affirm the verbal plenary inspiration of our right to bear arms as spelled out in the Constitution, Southern Baptists have ensured the spiritual vitality and endurance of its member churches.”