Boiling the frog with electricity

[2in1evtime]

Has bejing joe ordered his electric jet and helicopter yet, so he can say he is supporting green??

 

[AtTheMurph]

Has bejing joe ordered his electric jet and helicopter yet, so he can say he is supporting green??

Don't encourage him. When he does you are going to get stuck with a $20,000,000,000,000 bill for those two stupidities.

 

[2tonic]

They have their place. They're not ready to go cross-country. But they'd work fine for regional shipping.

Here's another: Tesla's semi.

Maybe.
Never will be.
Nope, they won't.

Just cause it looks like a truck, even quacks like a truck, doesn't make it a truck. Because it doesn't have the UTILITY of a truck.
Can't make changes to the schedule, or routing, once you start cause you have to end up at a charging station before it stops moving. 250 miles is a number they pulled out of their ass because someone told them FMCR grants exemptions to drivers that operate within a 125 airmile range of their yard, and that's regional shipping. 125 out, then 125 back, easy peasy. 'Cept it's 100 this way, then 200 that way, 150 back, plus 75 the other way. You stay within a 125 mile circle, but you may drive 500 miles. Until charging stations are as ubiquitous as fuel stops, electric is not practical for regional trucking as it is practiced today. New methods could change this.
Over the road? Nope....just straight nope. I'm writing this as I sit in Casper, Wyoming, where it's a brisk 0°, after spending Monday night in Omaha where it was -25°. If I break down, especially out in the mountains, or just the boonies, recovery can be a long time coming. If heavy snow, high winds, accidents, etc. cause me to have to shut down or divert my route to an unplanned location, how would an EPV handle that? I've been stuck in mountain passes for days til the way is clear. How could a dying EPV keep me alive in double digit sub- zero temps? My tractor could idle for 25 days on half full tanks, to provide heat and comfort, almost 2 months if full. And I can share that fuel with others similarly stranded and running low. I'd hate to be stuck on the windy side of the Rockies, watching my battery level sink,

Point is, a truck can run endlessly from point A to point Z, and all points in between. Lots of changes would have to be made to the industry, and the infrastructure, to accommodate EPV's. And that means heavy cost increases on every product that you use.

 

[jamil]

Maybe.
Never will be.
Nope, they won't.

Just cause it looks like a truck, even quacks like a truck, doesn't make it a truck. Because it doesn't have the UTILITY of a truck.
Can't make changes to the schedule, or routing, once you start cause you have to end up at a charging station before it stops moving. 250 miles is a number they pulled out of their ass because someone told them FMCR grants exemptions to drivers that operate within a 125 airmile range of their yard, and that's regional shipping. 125 out, then 125 back, easy peasy. 'Cept it's 100 this way, then 200 that way, 150 back, plus 75 the other way. You stay within a 125 mile circle, but you may drive 500 miles. Until charging stations are as ubiquitous as fuel stops, electric is not practical for regional trucking as it is practiced today. New methods could change this.
Over the road? Nope....just straight nope. I'm writing this as I sit in Casper, Wyoming, where it's a brisk 0°, after spending Monday night in Omaha where it was -25°. If I break down, especially out in the mountains, or just the boonies, recovery can be a long time coming. If heavy snow, high winds, accidents, etc. cause me to have to shut down or divert my route to an unplanned location, how would an EPV handle that? I've been stuck in mountain passes for days til the way is clear. How could a dying EPV keep me alive in double digit sub- zero temps? My tractor could idle for 25 days on half full tanks, to provide heat and comfort, almost 2 months if full. And I can share that fuel with others similarly stranded and running low. I'd hate to be stuck on the windy side of the Rockies, watching my battery level sink,

Point is, a truck can run endlessly from point A to point Z, and all points in between. Lots of changes would have to be made to the industry, and the infrastructure, to accommodate EPV's. And that means heavy cost increases on every product that you use.

People said the same kinds of things you’re saying about those crazy horseless carriages back in the day. And if the first cars they were skeptical about would have stayed exact the same. What you see today isn’t what you’ll see next year. Battery tech is improving. Charging tech is improving. Charging stations are becoming more ubiquitous. The uses for these rigs are very limited now, just like for electric pickup trucks. Within the next 20 years or so, they’ll be common as capabilities improve.

 

[Leadeye]

Down the road somewhere I think we'll see what I'll call the next great condensation of power. Internal combustion engines were the last big one and made the 20th century what it was. While batteries have gotten better, I actually like my battery chain saw for working on tops, they aren't there yet and like micro chips we may be looking at practical limits.

For me the question is why? Does our leadership really believe that this country will look like a set from Waterworld in the near future? A lot of them have expensive coastal property which would lead me to believe that they don't really buy into that.

 

[2tonic]

People said the same kinds of things you’re saying about those crazy horseless carriages back in the day. And if the first cars they were skeptical about would have stayed exact the same. What you see today isn’t what you’ll see next year. Battery tech is improving. Charging tech is improving. Charging stations are becoming more ubiquitous. The uses for these rigs are very limited now, just like for electric pickup trucks. Within the next 20 years or so, they’ll be common as capabilities improve.

You and I, sir, are in agreement.
Huge hurdles will have to be cleared, and many changes made.
I just hope there's dependable electricity in that future, otherwise this is all a wash.
Oh, and they better not beat on petroleum companies too hard. Oil is a volume business.... not enough sales volume, not enough potential profit to justify exploration, refining, etc. All these EPV's need grease and oil, or they ain't goin' anywhere.

 

[BugI02]

People said the same kinds of things you’re saying about those crazy horseless carriages back in the day. And if the first cars they were skeptical about would have stayed exact the same. What you see today isn’t what you’ll see next year. Battery tech is improving. Charging tech is improving. Charging stations are becoming more ubiquitous. The uses for these rigs are very limited now, just like for electric pickup trucks. Within the next 20 years or so, they’ll be common as capabilities improve.

As someone who usually is insisting that others base their arguments on 'just the facts', for something you obviously approve of and want to support your post reads like a mash-up of Tesla Electric Semi ad copy and science fiction. Science may not be able to solve those problems with current technology. After all, in 1899 and 1900 electric cars outsold all others, but then were superceded by superior and more practical technology for more than 100 years, until battery and motor technology improved enough to be competitive. Until someone demonstrates a practical electric over the road hauler that can be competitive without government subsidy, you are believing in fairy dust similar to what you chastise others for believing in

The same holds true even more so for electric aircraft as the power to weight limitations are even more unforgiving

 

[Leadeye]

My answer for why leadership is bludgeoning the country into accepting green power is simple.

Always follow the money

 

[actaeon277]

So, when I have my electric car, but the grid is down, I am ___________ .

 

[ghuns]

So, when I have my electric car, but the grid is down, I am ___________ .

Walking?

 

[foszoe]

So, when I have my electric car, but the grid is down, I am ___________ .

Charging your car from your solar hybrid system and laughing at all the gas guzzlers who are dependent on refineries who depend on the grid?

 

[Tombs]

Maybe.
Never will be.
Nope, they won't.

Just cause it looks like a truck, even quacks like a truck, doesn't make it a truck. Because it doesn't have the UTILITY of a truck.
Can't make changes to the schedule, or routing, once you start cause you have to end up at a charging station before it stops moving. 250 miles is a number they pulled out of their ass because someone told them FMCR grants exemptions to drivers that operate within a 125 airmile range of their yard, and that's regional shipping. 125 out, then 125 back, easy peasy. 'Cept it's 100 this way, then 200 that way, 150 back, plus 75 the other way. You stay within a 125 mile circle, but you may drive 500 miles. Until charging stations are as ubiquitous as fuel stops, electric is not practical for regional trucking as it is practiced today. New methods could change this.
Over the road? Nope....just straight nope. I'm writing this as I sit in Casper, Wyoming, where it's a brisk 0°, after spending Monday night in Omaha where it was -25°. If I break down, especially out in the mountains, or just the boonies, recovery can be a long time coming. If heavy snow, high winds, accidents, etc. cause me to have to shut down or divert my route to an unplanned location, how would an EPV handle that? I've been stuck in mountain passes for days til the way is clear. How could a dying EPV keep me alive in double digit sub- zero temps? My tractor could idle for 25 days on half full tanks, to provide heat and comfort, almost 2 months if full. And I can share that fuel with others similarly stranded and running low. I'd hate to be stuck on the windy side of the Rockies, watching my battery level sink,

Point is, a truck can run endlessly from point A to point Z, and all points in between. Lots of changes would have to be made to the industry, and the infrastructure, to accommodate EPV's. And that means heavy cost increases on every product that you use.

You do realize they have energy recovery systems, right?
It takes a lot of power to stop an 80,000 pound vehicle, and a huge percentage of that can be scavenged through the MGUK. Which will see its peak benefit in stop-and-go traffic, making it ideal for urban environments.

That's how they get the ranges they do. If they didn't have any scavenging abilities the range would be almost nothing.

The only real disadvantage I see to an electric semi is the weight. You're sacrificing a lot of cargo capacity to haul around a large battery with far lower energy density than the same weight in fuel.

I think the best option would be a conventional semi outfitted with kers. Which is nothing more than a large flywheel in a vacuum chamber with a CVT transmission attached to it. They've used them in urban busses for decades, and they effectively are just there to scavenge power from braking to use during acceleration, and they're far better than most people realize at doing this.

 

[Mikey1911]

You and I, sir, are in agreement.
Huge hurdles will have to be cleared, and many changes made.
I just hope there's dependable electricity in that future, otherwise this is all a wash.
Oh, and they better not beat on petroleum companies too hard. Oil is a volume business.... not enough sales volume, not enough potential profit to justify exploration, refining, etc. All these EPV's need grease and oil, or they ain't goin' anywhere.

You mean we won’t be able to go back to whale oil for lubricants?

 

[Tombs]

You mean we won’t be able to go back to whale oil for lubricants?

There's legitimate full synthetic oils. API Type IV

 

[Mikey1911]

There's legitimate full synthetic oils. API Type IV

Made from natural gas—another “evil” (according to the gospel of AOC) fossil fuel.

 

[2tonic]

You mean we won’t be able to go back to whale oil for lubricants?

Not til they make electric whalers!

 

[2tonic]

There's legitimate full synthetic oils. API Type IV

Yeah, that's right!
Those are made by......oh, wait.....the petroleum companies they're trying to put out of business.

 

[jamil]

You're arguing against a position I don't hold.

View attachment 126481

As someone who usually is insisting that others base their arguments on 'just the facts', for something you obviously approve of and want to support your post reads like a mash-up of Tesla Electric Semi ad copy and science fiction.

********. I'm doing no such thing. If you look at the body of opinion I've expressed on this topic you should see that I'm not making a "should" argument. I don't give a flying **** about getting rid of fossil fuels. I'm not an environmentalist. I'm saying that there will be a limited use for those electric semis when they come out. It won't be anything close to long haul. Maybe it'll be regional, and maybe not a vary long regional range. Some things need to happen before they are viable. Charging stations need to be more ubiquitous than they are now. Charging time needs to improve, which it looks like it will.

Science may not be able to solve those problems with current technology. After all, in 1899 and 1900 electric cars outsold all others, but then were superceded by superior and more practical technology for more than 100 years, until battery and motor technology improved enough to be competitive.

Obviously the technology isn't there yet or you'd be complaining that EV's are taking over internal combustion.

I think we're at least 20 years or so away from that. I'm not saying it's today. But I am fairly confident that it's not gonna be never, as you guys seem to be saying. I think the only way EV's won't overtake internal combustion in sales in that time frame is if some new technology overtakes both. I'm basing that on the trajectory of the technologies involved. I think 20 years is a fairly safe estimate. Science is pretty close to solving many of the technology issues now. The problem is still energy density which is not all that close to being solved. Battery power does not need to equal the energy density of fossil fuels because EV technology is so much more efficient than internal combustion. But it's definitely not there yet. But, the problems with charging time and availability of charging stations are getting solved.

Until someone demonstrates a practical electric over the road hauler that can be competitive without government subsidy, you are believing in fairy dust similar to what you chastise others for believing in

The same holds true even more so for electric aircraft as the power to weight limitations are even more unforgiving

I'm right there with you on the government subsidy. If an emerging technology can't make it in the market on its own without government subsidies, then it's just too bad. If Tesla's or anyone's electric rig can't make it in the market without a handout then it doesn't belong in the market. But that has nothing to do with whether or not it has a viable practical use, given that it can be made at a competitive price without subsidies. But the issue of subsidies are moot. That's a ship that's already in the ocean.

I know a couple of people who own a Tesla Model 3. Both of them love their cars. They use them for specific purposes. I've ridden in both of them. Very cool. But I'd rather admire someone else's Tesla than own one myself. Their fit and finish is ****. And Tesla's are kinda like Apple in that they'd sacrifice function for the sake of form. I want buttons and knobs. And I want a real ****ing door handle. But. Just considering the feat of technology, I think they're fascinating cars. I'm not at all interested in the Cybertruck. I don't think it's practical yet for the ways I use my truck. It's cool. And if I had a neighbor or friend who had one, I'm sure I'd think it's cool. EV's are ready for some people whose use cases fit the niche.

I could own one if it fit my needs. It's not there yet, but it will be someday. Saying it won't is a lot more rose colored than what I'm saying. You're dismissing the technology advancements more as an ideological whim than anything fact based. Go find someone who has a Tesla and have them take you for a spin. I challenge you to sit in the back seat after dark though and find your way out of the car without someone having to tell you where the door handles are.

 

[jamil]

My answer for why leadership is bludgeoning the country into accepting green power is simple.

Always follow the money

When Republicans are in power the military industrial complex gets richer. When Democrats are in power the green industrial complex gets richer. Both cronies. Different industries.

 

[1DOWN4UP]

Some were talking hydroelectric. In 2019,90 dams including some hydroelectrics were removed in 26 states. More are on the chopping block. It is all for the salmon and mussels.