Black man shot in Kenosha, riots starting all over again...

[buckwacker]

I do think we have a differing definition of poor. I think if your net worth is $1,000,000 and the government makes your net worth $1,000, you meet my definition of poor.

It's taken me several several years to accumulate retirement money. If you are middle aged its a lot harder to return to square one and start over then when you are 20. Gets even tougher over 50.

The effect ofcompounding interest comes into play.

I started off poor and have made it into the middle class. I don't feel anyone owes me anything. But if the government came today and took me to an internment camp and relieved me of my belongings, then yeah they made me poor and would feel I was owed something. If it caused my kids to suffer then yeah I would think they were owed something. Not a make whole payment that I would want but something, by the time I get to grandkids I dunno.

What I do believe is that the idea payment is only to to survivors years after the event occurred doesn't take into account the total damage done.

The Tuskegee experiment would fit that.

The Civil Rights Acts for all came about only what mid late 60s?

There are still kids and grandkids that were affected by that, being able to pursue financial liberty and happiness to the same degree as white folks. Are they owed millions? no. A college education at a state school and a $10000 down payment on a house or something? Maybe something less. Maybe less maybe more. Failure to discuss? A mistake.

I'm pretty sure there is enough financial support available for those of less means to get a practically free college education, especially if you're a member of a "victim" class.

 

[KG1]

You miss the point. Compliance is no guarantee of responsible treatment in an authoritarian state.

You sure threw the long ball to try and make your point. I see no broad scale correlation between the treatment of Jews by the Nazi regimen and the modern day treatment of Black individuals by law enforcement. There is no evidence to support that. Your scale is out of whack.

 

[Alpo]

A response on reparations in the NY Times

I’m black, and even I say we don’t need reparations now. (Maybe it would have been right in the immediate aftermath of slavery, but not now.) We need a fair playing field where the government invests equally in schools on our neighborhoods, where public universities are fully funded and not out of reach for poorer students, where housing lending is based on what you can afford to pay not higher interest for certain neighborhoods, where we aren’t excluded from voting because we have a disproportionate number of our population have been incarcerated based on laws that treated drug crimes and other crimes differently based on whiteness When we get that, we are successful. My parents benefited greatly from public universities and have seen their children thrive even in the face of inequality. If the government would just enforce laws against discrimination and invest again In education equally across all neighborhoods, that would be the greatest reparation we could take advantage of. But when white people fled the cities, the governments left them to fail. Now that whites are coming back to cities, suddenly, there’s increased investment. Let the reparations be government providing services to all citizens equally, and we’ll be OK.

 

[foszoe]

I can't believe they misattributed that quote. It is plagerized from some of my earlier writings

A response on reparations in the NY Times

 

[Alpo]

Drop the knife, Foz.

 

[foszoe]

I don't believe in systemic racism. I do believe there are people that have been victimized because of their race because of government policies. I do think they are owed something. I don't pretend to know what that something is.

I think discussing the impact of a victim of WWII internment camps compounds the issue, when what we're really discussing is the alleged "systemic racism" (or other, similar descriptors) that have allegedly had disparate impact on the Black community, making/keeping them poor in some universal/widespread/systemic manner.

Your example can arguably/reasonably fit all three prongs of my test, and no real debate about the meaning of "poor" is really even needed. The same is not true when discussing The System allegedly oppressing the Black community.

 

[DoggyDaddy]

A response on reparations in the NY Times

Emphasis added is mine.

I’m black, and even I say we don’t need reparations now. (Maybe it would have been right in the immediate aftermath of slavery, but not now.) Agreed. We need a fair playing field where the government invests equally in schools on our neighborhoods, IPS, the largest school district in the state, and which probably has the highest percentage of minority students, already spends more per student than any other district. How much is "enough"? where public universities are fully funded and not out of reach for poorer students, Financial aid is already available and favors minorities. Again, how much is "enough"? where housing lending is based on what you can afford to pay not higher interest for certain neighborhoods, Already addressed by not only Equal Opportunity Lending laws, but also incentives for minority borrowers where we aren’t excluded from voting because we have a disproportionate number of our population have been incarcerated based on laws that treated drug crimes and other crimes differently based on whiteness Don't break the law = no incarceration = no problem When we get that, we are successful. My parents benefited greatly from public universities and have seen their children thrive even in the face of inequality. If the government would just enforce laws against discrimination and invest again In education equally across all neighborhoods, Done, and then some, to the point that it favors minorities that would be the greatest reparation we could take advantage of. But when white people fled the cities, the governments left them to fail. No they didn't. They chose to fail. Now that whites are coming back to cities, suddenly, there’s increased investment. By whites. Why didn't blacks invest when they were presented with the opportunities described above? Let the reparations be government providing services to all citizens equally, They do. Actually they provide them disproportionately in favor of minorities and we’ll be OK. So why aren't you OK?

 

[foszoe]

Emphasis added is mine.

I’m black, and even I say we don’t need reparations now. (Maybe it would have been right in the immediate aftermath of slavery, but not now.) Agreed. Agreed. We need a fair playing field where the government invests equally in schools on our neighborhoods, IPS, the largest school district in the state, and which probably has the highest percentage of minority students, already spends more per student than any other district. How much is "enough"? Could it possibly be how it is targeted? where public universities are fully funded and not out of reach for poorer students, Financial aid is already available and favors minorities. Again, how much is "enough"?Has that financial aid kept up to the cost? Do Pell Grants equate now to what they were then? where housing lending is based on what you can afford to pay not higher interest for certain neighborhoods, Already addressed by not only Equal Opportunity Lending laws, but also incentives for minority borrowersof 1974. When do you think it actually became effective and mostly followed? Could it be possible that there are still people today that were buying houses in the early 1970s that were adversely affected? where we aren’t excluded from voting because we have a disproportionate number of our population have been incarcerated based on laws that treated drug crimes and other crimes differently based on whiteness Don't break the law = no incarceration = no problemSounds easy enough. Maybe we just go death penalty on anyone who breaks a law since its so easy we could stamp most crime right out!When we get that, we are successful. My parents benefited greatly from public universities and have seen their children thrive even in the face of inequality. If the government would just enforce laws against discrimination and invest again In education equally across all neighborhoods, Done, and then some, to the point that it favors minorities So you believe that the laws against discrimination are enforced to such a level that we should see what percentage of cases brought to court that are successful? that would be the greatest reparation we could take advantage of. But when white people fled the cities, the governments left them to fail. No they didn't. They chose to fail. Cities? Maybe not those who were too poor to move anywhere they wished. Now that whites are coming back to cities, suddenly, there’s increased investment. By whites. Why didn't blacks invest when they were presented with the opportunities described above?Whats the net worth of the average black family compared to the average white family? What are the reasons you would ascribe the differences to since they system seems to have done everything to level the field? Let the reparations be government providing services to all citizens equally, They do. Actually they provide them disproportionately in favor of minorities Do you it should be disproportionate? Why or why not? and we’ll be OK. So why aren't you OK?Because I don't think the government has enforced the laws to the degree that do nor have the laws themselves been around long enough to have leveled the playing field.

See above!

 

[NKBJ]

What really matters is what BLM is, well, now that the cat is out of the bag.
So are you going to surrender your civilization on the basis of brain wash propagandizing (and purchased politicians) like South Africa did?
How many even know what has happened there? Or what is happening now?
Oh the stories of when the Ziewa insurgents came through base camp begging for gas on the way to kill the Belgies and French. And when the French paras drove them away, the insurgents coming back across country so happy about the next time when the weather turned.

 

[jamil]

You can't, they mask their agenda in police corruption but if you stop and listen to their speeches you can see it's merely a scape goat for them.

They springboard off that once they have followers, to then talk about decolonization of science and education, eating the rich, and tearing down the concepts of property ownership.

If police corruption didn't exist, they'd simply use manipulated videos to make their case, and allege that is was happening anyway.

I’m not talking about the ideologues. I’m talking about average black people.

 

[DoggyDaddy]

Originally Posted by DoggyDaddy
Emphasis added is mine.

I’m black, and even I say we don’t need reparations now. (Maybe it would have been right in the immediate aftermath of slavery, but not now.) Agreed. Agreed. We need a fair playing field where the government invests equally in schools on our neighborhoods, IPS, the largest school district in the state, and which probably has the highest percentage of minority students, already spends more per student than any other district. How much is "enough"? Could it possibly be how it is targeted? where public universities are fully funded and not out of reach for poorer students, Financial aid is already available and favors minorities. Again, how much is "enough"?Has that financial aid kept up to the cost? Do Pell Grants equate now to what they were then? where housing lending is based on what you can afford to pay not higher interest for certain neighborhoods, Already addressed by not only Equal Opportunity Lending laws, but also incentives for minority borrowersof 1974. When do you think it actually became effective and mostly followed? Could it be possible that there are still people today that were buying houses in the early 1970s that were adversely affected? where we aren’t excluded from voting because we have a disproportionate number of our population have been incarcerated based on laws that treated drug crimes and other crimes differently based on whiteness Don't break the law = no incarceration = no problemSounds easy enough. Maybe we just go death penalty on anyone who breaks a law since its so easy we could stamp most crime right out!When we get that, we are successful. My parents benefited greatly from public universities and have seen their children thrive even in the face of inequality. If the government would just enforce laws against discrimination and invest again In education equally across all neighborhoods, Done, and then some, to the point that it favors minorities So you believe that the laws against discrimination are enforced to such a level that we should see what percentage of cases brought to court that are successful? that would be the greatest reparation we could take advantage of. But when white people fled the cities, the governments left them to fail. No they didn't. They chose to fail. Cities? Maybe not those who were too poor to move anywhere they wished. Now that whites are coming back to cities, suddenly, there’s increased investment. By whites. Why didn't blacks invest when they were presented with the opportunities described above?Whats the net worth of the average black family compared to the average white family? What are the reasons you would ascribe the differences to since they system seems to have done everything to level the field? Let the reparations be government providing services to all citizens equally, They do. Actually they provide them disproportionately in favor of minorities Do you it should be disproportionate? Why or why not? and we’ll be OK. So why aren't you OK?Because I don't think the government has enforced the laws to the degree that do nor have the laws themselves been around long enough to have leveled the playing field.

See above!

Skipping the first point upon which we agreed...

1) How it is targeted? It is targeted to the school system. It's up to them to use it as they see fit, but to say that it isn't benefiting minorities would seem to be an issue best taken up with the school council or administrator.
2) If financial aid hasn't kept up with the cost, that's probably across the board, regardless of race.
3) Irrelevant. We're talking about today, not the 1970's. If they're still paying on a loan taken out in the 1970's, they've done something wrong.
4) It IS easy to avoid breaking the law. Not sure what you meant with your death penalty reference.
5) Yes, I do think the laws are enforced effectively. Kinda lost track on the second part of your sentence.
6) How did the government leave them (the minorities?) to fail when white people left? Seems to me there might have been a lot of properties for sale cheap? They had the opportunity to invest like anyone else. They could've improved their properties and increased their property value. Why didn't they when they had the opportunity after the "white people left"?
7) I believe that there are a lot of "families" (ie. single mother, multiple children from multiple fathers, none of which are in the home) that probably bring the overall average income level down, so I don't think that's a good metric for comparison. Plenty of examples of successful black families though. Financially and otherwise.
8) No, I don't think it should be disproportionate. Being disproportionate is pretty much the definition of discrimination, is it not?
9) I disagree that the government has not enforced the laws. Hell, they've created new ones on top of the ones that have been around for 60 years or more (56 for the CRA). How long is long enough? They've been in effect for almost as long as I've been alive. So 2 to 3 generations at least. How long is enough?

 

[jamil]

Does it matter whether or not he assaulted her that day? He was in the act of violating a protective order resulting from a prior sexual assault. The very act of violating the protective order inherently presumes dangerous intent on his part. That's sort of why protective orders exist.

I'm not sure what you're responding to. The point being argued was about the likelihood of that police encounter to go bad. Regardless of whether he slapped hr 100 times a day or whatever else was going on. It doesn't matter if he raped 27 Cocker Spaniels in heat. If he would have complied with officers when they tried to arrest him, he would not have gotten shot. That was the only point I was making about the assault not mattering. It was immaterial to him being shot. Him resisting arrest, resisting hands on/taser, THAT's what put lethal force on the table. If he complies, firearms stay in holsters.

 

[DoggyDaddy]

I'm not sure what you're responding to. The point being argued was about the likelihood of that police encounter to go bad. Regardless of whether he slapped hr 100 times a day or whatever else was going on. It doesn't matter if he raped 27 Cocker Spaniels in heat. If he would have complied with officers when they tried to arrest him, he would not have gotten shot. That was the only point I was making about the assault not mattering. It was immaterial to him being shot. Him resisting arrest, resisting hands on/taser, THAT's what put lethal force on the table. If he complies, firearms stay in holsters.

But he could've been loaded on to a cattle car and taken to a death camp!


(Hi Alpo! )

 

[jamil]

Emphasis added is mine.

I’m black, and even I say we don’t need reparations now. (Maybe it would have been right in the immediate aftermath of slavery, but not now.) Agreed. We need a fair playing field where the government invests equally in schools on our neighborhoods, IPS, the largest school district in the state, and which probably has the highest percentage of minority students, already spends more per student than any other district. How much is "enough"? where public universities are fully funded and not out of reach for poorer students, Financial aid is already available and favors minorities. Again, how much is "enough"? where housing lending is based on what you can afford to pay not higher interest for certain neighborhoods, Already addressed by not only Equal Opportunity Lending laws, but also incentives for minority borrowers where we aren’t excluded from voting because we have a disproportionate number of our population have been incarcerated based on laws that treated drug crimes and other crimes differently based on whiteness Don't break the law = no incarceration = no problem When we get that, we are successful. My parents benefited greatly from public universities and have seen their children thrive even in the face of inequality. If the government would just enforce laws against discrimination and invest again In education equally across all neighborhoods, Done, and then some, to the point that it favors minorities that would be the greatest reparation we could take advantage of. But when white people fled the cities, the governments left them to fail. No they didn't. They chose to fail. Now that whites are coming back to cities, suddenly, there’s increased investment. By whites. Why didn't blacks invest when they were presented with the opportunities described above? Let the reparations be government providing services to all citizens equally, They do. Actually they provide them disproportionately in favor of minorities and we’ll be OK. So why aren't you OK?

See above!

That is really ****ing hard to read when you have dyslexia. OMG that hurt.

 

[foszoe]

In nutshell version.

Believing that because a law exists to address a racial issue means the issue is resolved is putting more faith in the government than I am willing to do.

Skipping the first point upon which we agreed...

1) How it is targeted? It is targeted to the school system. It's up to them to use it as they see fit, but to say that it isn't benefiting minorities would seem to be an issue best taken up with the school council or administrator.
2) If financial aid hasn't kept up with the cost, that's probably across the board, regardless of race.
3) Irrelevant. We're talking about today, not the 1970's. If they're still paying on a loan taken out in the 1970's, they've done something wrong.
4) It IS easy to avoid breaking the law. Not sure what you meant with your death penalty reference.
5) Yes, I do think the laws are enforced effectively. Kinda lost track on the second part of your sentence.
6) How did the government leave them (the minorities?) to fail when white people left? Seems to me there might have been a lot of properties for sale cheap? They had the opportunity to invest like anyone else. They could've improved their properties and increased their property value. Why didn't they when they had the opportunity after the "white people left"?
7) I believe that there are a lot of "families" (ie. single mother, multiple children from multiple fathers, none of which are in the home) that probably bring the overall average income level down, so I don't think that's a good metric for comparison. Plenty of examples of successful black families though. Financially and otherwise.
8) No, I don't think it should be disproportionate. Being disproportionate is pretty much the definition of discrimination, is it not?
9) I disagree that the government has not enforced the laws. Hell, they've created new ones on top of the ones that have been around for 60 years or more (56 for the CRA). How long is long enough? They've been in effect for almost as long as I've been alive. So 2 to 3 generations at least. How long is enough?

 

[foszoe]

LOL.

How much of what I type is worth reading anyway? I am more deserving of being ignored than anyone on here, unless I am talking about the one true Christianity

That is really ****ing hard to read when you have dyslexia. OMG that hurt.

 

[jamil]

LOL.

How much of what I type is worth reading anyway? I am more deserving of being ignored than anyone on here, unless I am talking about the one true Christianity

Eh. I read it. It hurt. But I read it.

 

[KG1]

I'm not sure what you're responding to. The point being argued was about the likelihood of that police encounter to go bad. Regardless of whether he slapped hr 100 times a day or whatever else was going on. It doesn't matter if he raped 27 Cocker Spaniels in heat. If he would have complied with officers when they tried to arrest him, he would not have gotten shot. That was the only point I was making about the assault not mattering. It was immaterial to him being shot. Him resisting arrest, resisting hands on/taser, THAT's what put lethal force on the table. If he complies, firearms stay in holsters.

According to Alpo you can't know that for sure under this authoritarian state so why take the chance and comply? I mean it worked out really well when he chose not to comply.

 

[DoggyDaddy]

Eh. I read it. It hurt. But I read it.

Now your know how we feel...

Between you, chip and Bug, I've probably read the equivalent of War and Peace.

 

[KG1]

Now your know how we feel...

Between you, chip and Bug, I've probably read the equivalent of War and Peace.

It really is hell when you are trying to catch up on a thread with the wall of words. My mind goes blank at a certain point and I curl up in a fetal position.