Black man shot in Kenosha, riots starting all over again...

[Denny347]

Frank,

Hindsight is 20/20...but what are your thoughts about not physically blocking him from trying to re-enter the car or not taking him down with other than lethal force before he gets to the vehicle? At the moment he opens the door and starts reaching, sure. I see the justification. My questions is whether it could have been safer for everyone, obviously including the cops, to not allow him to access the vehicle.

Yes. I heard that.

Some time ago, one of our INGO LEOs (don't remember who), if I recall, lamented the growing reticence to go "hands on", leading to more drawing the weapon and the needed for shoot/don't shoot decisions. I understand that police are in a near "no win" situation, but I am just trying to think about what could have prevented the need for deadly force.

To me, it starts with cutting off access to the vehicle.

Need a lot more facts to conclude what prompted the escalation to a discharged firearm.

Optics support additional confirmation that police reform is mandatory.

Personally, it certainly looks like the cop is the worst type of coward....but I'll await more facts on the runup to the shoot.

I dunno, I think it kinda matters. Not following orders isn’t a death sentence. I’m a huge supporter of LEO, but that isn’t to say I condone shooting a perp for disobeying an order. Now, if a weapon was present, that changes a lot.

I understand that, but there has to be a line, and without a weapon being presented or in view I can’t agree with using deadly force for the sole purpose of not following orders. Once a deadly threat is identified by all means empty the entire magazine and reload for all I care.

Does this cop shoot his own family for disobeying? We don't have the runup facts at this point: BUT the guy didn't appear to be threatening the police or anyone else when headed to his car. What is lost if the cops just let him leave? Face? In light of all the cautions that I'm sure are given to all departments this summer?

I look at this and I wonder what we would feel like if it happened in Indianapolis.

He lived there. This was at his residence, from what I understand. The catfight was nextdoor neighbors.

I'm sorry, but so far I see nothing in this LEO's favor.

Law Enforcement in the United States should at minimum go by The Rule of Armed Conflict that our troops have to use. Just something about shooting citizens while leaving / or running away should be a problem.

So before everyone dies on the wrong hill think about this:
1. This guy was at a gas station waving a knife around (see red circle of his L hand)
2. This guy was a wanted sexual assault suspect of a 14 year old minor
3. This guy reached into his vehicle while holding a knife in his non gun hand
4. This guy, and this guy alone, is the reason he suffered multiple gunshot wounds.


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[Tombs]

Welp after that picture, it's obvious why they didn't try to grab him.

 

[Alpo]

Doesn't look like a knife. Video shows it going into his right hand. I would guess it might even be something non lethal. Keys....wallet....sunglasses.

Here is his left hand at the door.




I looked at the video a few times. It may be that whatever it was ended up being put in his right-hand pocket as he attempted to enter the vehicle.

 

[bwframe]

Is that a karambit in this hand?

 

[Alpo]

Maybe. Might also be a key and fob and he's unlocking the doors.

 

[Tombs]

Maybe. Might also be a key and fob and he's unlocking the doors.

With as extensive of a criminal history as this individual has, I think a knife is a lot more likely, especially considering police behavior.

 

[Alpo]

I'm sticking with maybe. The shape of the thing in the foto is all wrong for a hawkbill knife. It does look like a plastic piece and a shiny part of a key under his thumb.

But, I've got 70 year old eyes, so whaddaiknow?

 

[BugI02]

So far I see two sides both saying we need more info. But then presenting a bunch of hypotheticals meant to support one side or the other. Basically I am simply stuck at we need more info. But then we only be on page 2 or 3 

Doesn't look like a knife. Video shows it going into his right hand. I would guess it might even be something non lethal. Keys....wallet....sunglasses ...

Maybe. Might also be a key and fob and he's unlocking the doors.

Yeah, I see what you mean fos

 

[Alpo]

More video. A bit earlier. Different angle.

There was a physical confrontation.

[video=youtube_share;l1uv7DU8Q2Y]http://youtu.be/l1uv7DU8Q2Y[/video]

 

[Tombs]

More video. A bit earlier. Different angle.

There was a physical confrontation.

[video=youtube_share;l1uv7DU8Q2Y]http://youtu.be/l1uv7DU8Q2Y[/video]

Sitting on top of someone and beating them is just a "physical confrontation."

 

[Alpo]

Sitting on top of someone and beating them is just a "physical confrontation."

Sitting on someone? You got that in the video? Your eyes are better than mine then.

If someone asked me what I just saw in that video, I'd say it looked like Blake was tased and got up.


Or....does your comment have nothing to do with the video?

 

[Clay Pigeon]

So before everyone dies on the wrong hill think about this:
1. This guy was at a gas station waving a knife around (see red circle of his L hand)
2. This guy was a wanted sexual assault suspect of a 14 year old minor
3. This guy reached into his vehicle while holding a knife in his non gun hand
4. This guy, and this guy alone, is the reason he suffered multiple gunshot wounds.


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I'll wait until all the facts are in including all the video released then I will have an opinion with this case...

My statement about use of force should be law across this land. Kinna tough to swallow that its acceptable for some to shoot a citizen and under the same scenario a Marine could spend the rest of his life in prison for the same shooting while on deployment.

 

[Hatin Since 87]

More video. A bit earlier. Different angle.

There was a physical confrontation.

[video=youtube_share;l1uv7DU8Q2Y]http://youtu.be/l1uv7DU8Q2Y[/video]

Wow. This definitely changes things imo. I’d still like to wait until all the facts are out, but dang, that doesn’t look good. I dunno anymore, I’m glad I’m not an officer... not a job I could do. It appears he’s walking away and the physical altercation is over when he’s shot, but the fact there was a physical altercation definitely escalates the situation to more likely justifiable now. I do know one thing for sure, 50 people screaming while I’m trying to make that judgment won’t help

 

[Route 45]

I'll wait until all the facts are in including all the video released then I will have an opinion with this case...

My statement about use of force should be law across this land. Kinna tough to swallow that its acceptable for some to shoot a citizen and under the same scenario a Marine could spend the rest of his life in prison for the same shooting while on deployment.

Military rules of engagement are totally irrelevant. Especially since we still don't know if this guy was reaching for a weapon or not.

Besides, the military is no stranger to shooting unarmed civilians. And nobody does life in prison for it. I think a guy got a few years on house arrest one time.

Ever been to Haditha?

 

[Hookeye]

Yeah, those Thin Mint cookies are so damn good, even with a warrant for arrest and armed police around, its worth ignoring all commands and risking it by making a secretive move to fetch em from the vehicle.

Candidate for sainthood just wanted to share some cookies w the po po, you know, a neighborhood activist trying to build bridges.

 

[Hookeye]

Should not have allowed him to gain access to vehicle.

Weapon or not, that kinda move deserves a harsh response.

Good shoot.

He knew damn well what he was doing and what would happen.

Just another spin of the municipal.lottery wheel, no doubt BLM mindset said he deserved to take a spin.

 

[Clay Pigeon]

Military rules of engagement are totally irrelevant. Especially since we still don't know if this guy was reaching for a weapon or not.

Besides, the military is no stranger to shooting unarmed civilians. And nobody does life in prison for it. I think a guy got a few years on house arrest one time.

Ever been to Haditha?

Lots of strawmen in your post...

And I stated in that post I will wait until all the facts and video are released..

I used the word "Could" for a reason, And I missed the dam by 20 years..
My time away was mostly spent in Central Africa and in the South West Caribbean Sea...

Sorry I dont agree with not having, The rules of engagement.... Its a tough job to be a peace keeper, it ain't for everybody.

 

[ditcherman]

Yeah, those Thin Mint cookies are so damn good, even with a warrant for arrest and armed police around, its worth ignoring all commands and risking it by making a secretive move to fetch em from the vehicle.

Candidate for sainthood just wanted to share some cookies w the po po, you know, a neighborhood activist trying to build bridges.

I think you’re on to something.
Those thin mints are so addicting! And there is no way we can outlaw them, or even restrict ones right to fetch a thin mint as we’re being arrested. It’s as American as welfare and never being held accountable for anything! It’s addictive! It’s a disease! He can not be held responsible! He was also saving his children from diabetes by not letting them eat them all. Oh, the sacrifices he made! What a guy.
Thank you for showing me the light.


As per usual, too much?
No more speculation in here than in some of these posts.

 

[Denny347]

Doesn't look like a knife. Video shows it going into his right hand. I would guess it might even be something non lethal. Keys....wallet....sunglasses.

Here is his left hand at the door.

View attachment 90415


I looked at the video a few times. It may be that whatever it was ended up being put in his right-hand pocket as he attempted to enter the vehicle.

We happen to be viewing this from an angle that the officers didn't have. They were told he had a knife and without a crystal clear view, thought he still was holding a knife. I think the audio you could hear someone telling him to drop the knife.

 

[Denny347]

I'll wait until all the facts are in including all the video released then I will have an opinion with this case...

My statement about use of force should be law across this land. Kinna tough to swallow that its acceptable for some to shoot a citizen and under the same scenario a Marine could spend the rest of his life in prison for the same shooting while on deployment.

Waiting is perfectly responsible. Take it up with the SCOTUS. Graham v. Connor has been our law of the land on use of force since 1989.