Bird shot + Judge = boo-boo

[IndyDave1776]

I know of one guy that keeps one by his 4 wheeler for just such a purpose...He has it in a shoulder rig and when he heads out to do chores he just slips it over his shoulder..I know another guy that keeps a .410 Snake Charmer (the shotgun, not the derringer) on his 4 wheeler for the same purpose and my wife has a Snake Charmer (the shotgun, not the derringer) she keeps close at hand at our little farm...

The .410 really shines in that role IMHO.....

I would agree. I learned a lesson in childhood from a family friend who used a 28 gauge for shooting birds in the barn. Upon inquiry, he explained that it was sufficient for the job and would not put holes in the roof or walls of the barn. For practical purposes, the .410 seems a good alternative for the same purpose of minimizing secondary destructiveness without using shells that require tackling a leprechaun to resupply. In fact, one build I have accumulated parts for is a .410 Krag. As it were, I have a Krag carbine build well on the way and had accumulated quite a few parts including actions and barrels. I noticed a similarity and confirmed that the case head dimensions are practically identical, and decided that I wanted one for more planned pest control sweeps.

 

[knot4reel]

Occasional hyperbole aside, I don't really think that this is the actual argument, but rather one of why a person would pick something for defense when other options are clearly better. Case in point, 9mm, .357, .41mag, .44mag, .45LC, and .45 ACP are all going to launch bullets of at least double, perhaps approaching triple the weight at higher velocities, with more predictable results upon impact. Of course, launching .45LC from the Judge comes with the primary disadvantage of being significantly less compact in critical areas than a dedicated platform. As for me, as previously stated, I am strongly considering a Judge for farm pests, but it still would not be my first choice for personal protection. At the same time, I would not feel naked before the forces of evil with one, and would definitely prefer it to most any non-firearm equipment or to a number of other firearms, including but not limited to .25 ACP and .32 ACP. I would find it much easier to come down on the Judge's side for a one size fits all if I were in the situation of having to deal with farm pests in addition to personal protection and could afford only one gun. As it is, I have more than one gun for the same reason that a golfer has more than one club and would not, as a matter of preference, drag his bag around the course using only his super one-club-fits-all-needs club while letting the right tool for the right job sit in the bag.

I think the "why would you" isn't the point here. People want different weapons for their own reasons. I think the real question to be answered is will it work with ammunition designed for it in a self defense scenario. Me thinks it will on the test posted in the links and the shooting I have done with it. I own one, love it, and shoot it a lot ( with birdshot for fun shooting only ). Like ANY weapon the personal defense ammunition is expensive. I have shot enough of it to be satisfied with the choice of which one is best for me. I bought it for my use not anyone else's. No I will not junk it because the naysayers say it is.

 

[bwframe]

135 replies to the post and I still haven't seen anyone volunteer to be shot with a Judge, even with the "totally useless and completely non-lethal bird-shot".

I'll do it. As long as the shooter understands they'll be shooting at someone holding a proven to work self defense gun/caliber.

 

[mammynun]

The "why would you" is the point for me. While a Judge is certainly better than some options, physics dictates that it's certainly not as good as others. A Judge is like a Leatherman; they're OK for assembling Christmas toys, but I would want to rebuild a small block Chevy with one.

 

[knot4reel]

The "why would you" is the point for me. While a Judge is certainly better than some options, physics dictates that it's certainly not as good as others. A Judge is like a Leatherman; they're OK for assembling Christmas toys, but I would want to rebuild a small block Chevy with one.

A quick question if you don't mind. How many guns do you own and if more than one why? Also would you mind to elaborate on the physics angle for me as I obviously don't understand as much as I should about this.

 

[knot4reel]

I'll do it. As long as the shooter understands they'll be shooting at someone holding a proven to work self defense gun/caliber.

Who gets to shoot first and at what distance?

 

[bwframe]

Who gets to shoot first and at what distance?

If The Judge is your self defense gun, what does that matter? It's the best gun for the job, right?

 

[El-Cigarro]

I get the feeling very few people in here have ever killed anything with a .410.

ARE YOU KIDDING ME? My trusty Savage Mod. 311 has killed plenty. I wouldn't want to be on the bidness end of one......

 

[mammynun]

A quick question if you don't mind. How many guns do you own and if more than one why? Also would you mind to elaborate on the physics angle for me as I obviously don't understand as much as I should about this.

I own more than one gun because I only assemble toys once a year.

BBI has covered the physics pretty well, but in short you need mass and/or speed to get the force needed to penetrate. In the ballistics world sectional density will help you maintain speed through a medium (atmospheric or bad guy). The .410 in a Judge offers neither the speed or the mass/SD to as effective as any of the commonly accepted self defense calibers.

There's more to it, but the fact that no military or police force uses the Judge is what is known as a "clue."

 

[knot4reel]

I own more than one gun because I only assemble toys once a year.

BBI has covered the physics pretty well, but in short you need mass and/or speed to get the force needed to penetrate. In the ballistics world sectional density will help you maintain speed through a medium (atmospheric or bad guy). The .410 in a Judge offers neither the speed or the mass/SD to as effective as any of the commonly accepted self defense calibers.

There's more to it, but the fact that no military or police force uses the Judge is what is known as a "clue."

Really. That's quite the educated response I've been expecting. As far as the physics thing, maybe go back and re watch the links I posted even though he's been labeled an amateur .

 

[Jeffrey]

Very well put. I occasionally carry my governor when out scouting or hunting, but understand its limitations while carrying it. Like previously stated, definitely don't feel "naked against the forces of evil" while carrying it. QUOTE=IndyDave1776;6165060]Occasional hyperbole aside, I don't really think that this is the actual argument, but rather one of why a person would pick something for defense when other options are clearly better. Case in point, 9mm, .357, .41mag, .44mag, .45LC, and .45 ACP are all going to launch bullets of at least double, perhaps approaching triple the weight at higher velocities, with more predictable results upon impact. Of course, launching .45LC from the Judge comes with the primary disadvantage of being significantly less compact in critical areas than a dedicated platform. As for me, as previously stated, I am strongly considering a Judge for farm pests, but it still would not be my first choice for personal protection. At the same time, I would not feel naked before the forces of evil with one, and would definitely prefer it to most any non-firearm equipment or to a number of other firearms, including but not limited to .25 ACP and .32 ACP. I would find it much easier to come down on the Judge's side for a one size fits all if I were in the situation of having to deal with farm pests in addition to personal protection and could afford only one gun. As it is, I have more than one gun for the same reason that a golfer has more than one club and would not, as a matter of preference, drag his bag around the course using only his super one-club-fits-all-needs club while letting the right tool for the right job sit in the bag.[/QUOTE]

 

[richardraw316]

This is getting good.
I am one of those people who can only afford one gun at a time. Sucks, i know. I am also weird in the fact i dont like being part of the crowd. I like different and unique things. Ecspecially firarms. I do not believe the judge is the best gun at all things cause its not. In fact im not sure their is one gun that is. What it is is different. Its fun and i like it. At close range i have no doubt that with the right ammo it will stop someone in their tracks. I dont know how it does pattern wise at 75ft but will test that when i get one. Asking someone to volunteer to stand in front of it and be shot is a bad as an arguement as which military or police issue it. No body except a fool would purposely allow themselves to be sbot by just about anything. And. Which military issues a 357 magnum 5 shot revolver, or a shield, or and xds, or a glock 26? Those are all effective in most peoples logic but arent traditonal side arms for military or police. Actually i dont know about the 26.
I will buy one. I will enjoy it. I will protect me and mine with it. When im bored with it, i will sell it and buy something else unique. Why? Because i can. Merica! Aint it great?

 

[bwframe]

This is getting good.
I am one of those people who can only afford one gun at a time. Sucks, i know. I am also weird in the fact i dont like being part of the crowd. I like different and unique things. Ecspecially firarms. I do not believe the judge is the best gun at all things cause its not. In fact im not sure their is one gun that is. What it is is different. Its fun and i like it. At close range i have no doubt that with the right ammo it will stop someone in their tracks. I dont know how it does pattern wise at 75ft but will test that when i get one. Asking someone to volunteer to stand in front of it and be shot is a bad as an arguement as which military or police issue it. No body except a fool would purposely allow themselves to be sbot by just about anything. And. Which military issues a 357 magnum 5 shot revolver, or a shield, or and xds, or a glock 26? Those are all effective in most peoples logic but arent traditonal side arms for military or police. Actually i dont know about the 26.
I will buy one. I will enjoy it. I will protect me and mine with it. When im bored with it, i will sell it and buy something else unique. Why? Because i can. Merica! Aint it great?

Folks justifying money already spent is understandable. In your case, sounds like you still have options?
https://www.indianagunowners.com/fo...um-special-purpose-18-5-inch-barrel-$325.html

 

[BehindBlueI's]

What it is is different. Its fun and i like it.

That's the honest answer for most anyone who carries one, unless they were sucked in by the marketing.

Like I said early on, you'll probably be fine. I'd feed it with a boring ol' bonded HP .45 Colt like a PDX-1, though, regardless of how it performs on pumpkins or wet phone books.

Which military issues a 357 magnum 5 shot revolver, or a shield, or and xds, or a glock 26?

Just for funsies and to side track a side track to a side track, he only difference between those and commonly issued weapons is size. Duty weapons just tend to be larger, and issued backup guns tend to be smaller. The ammo selection is the same and the general platform is the same. There are departments that have, or do, issue 5-shot j-frames as backup guns. ISP used to issue a PPK in .380 "back in the day". The XD lineup usually don't fare well in police trials. They break at a much lower round count than the competitors. I don't know of anyone who issues them, which is not to say no one does. "Someone" covers a lot of ground. Somebody must issue the Glock 26, as police trade ins exist. I have no idea who. http://www.aimsurplus.com/product.aspx?item=F1glk26 , etc. Probably for investigator positions.

There WERE police departments that issued .45 Colt revolvers, particularly in the southwest. Just no one that I know of that issued a .410/.45 combo.

 

[richardraw316]

Folks justifying money already spent is understandable. In your case, sounds like you still have options?
https://www.indianagunowners.com/fo...um-special-purpose-18-5-inch-barrel-$325.html

Im not sure i can cc that rig but im always open to trying. Lol

 

[richardraw316]

That's the honest answer for most anyone who carries one, unless they were sucked in by the marketing.

Like I said early on, you'll probably be fine. I'd feed it with a boring ol' bonded HP .45 Colt like a PDX-1, though, regardless of how it performs on pumpkins or wet phone books.



Just for funsies and to side track a side track to a side track, he only difference between those and commonly issued weapons is size. Duty weapons just tend to be larger, and issued backup guns tend to be smaller. The ammo selection is the same and the general platform is the same. There are departments that have, or do, issue 5-shot j-frames as backup guns. ISP used to issue a PPK in .380 "back in the day". The XD lineup usually don't fare well in police trials. They break at a much lower round count than the competitors. I don't know of anyone who issues them, which is not to say no one does. "Someone" covers a lot of ground. Somebody must issue the Glock 26, as police trade ins exist. I have no idea who. http://www.aimsurplus.com/product.aspx?item=F1glk26 , etc. Probably for investigator positions.

There WERE police departments that issued .45 Colt revolvers, particularly in the southwest. Just no one that I know of that issued a .410/.45 combo.

Thats what i was trying to get at. The judge could shoot nuclear powered attack submarines out of it and police or military still wont issue it because its a 5 shot revolver. I wouldnt call that a fair arguement against a firearm

 

[CPT Nervous]

I am enjoying this thread quite a bit.

 

[bwframe]

Are there instruction classes on the use of this sort of firearm for self defense?

 

[rhino]

Are there instruction classes on the use of this sort of firearm for self defense?

That would actually be in interesting class to design. You'd have all the normal handgun stuff, but also additional factors such a more more detailed bit on ammunition selection, patterning the gun with shot like you do in shotgun classes, checking change of point of impact for .45 Colt vs. .410 slugs vs. the center of the shot pattern, reloading a wheel gun that probably doesn't have speed loaders available, etc.

 

[bwframe]

That would actually be in interesting class to design. You'd have all the normal handgun stuff, but also additional factors such a more more detailed bit on ammunition selection, patterning the gun with shot like you do in shotgun classes, checking change of point of impact for .45 Colt vs. .410 slugs vs. the center of the shot pattern, reloading a wheel gun that probably doesn't have speed loaders available, etc.

Your welcome sir! No charge for this money making idea.
Now you have to use your tax write off advantage to buy a couple variations of this gun, (maybe the S&W version too?) to wring out testing.