Atheists Suing to Have WTC Cross Removed From Memorial Museum

[DarkRose]

They should be nailed to it!! they might get it then!!

This is a fantastic example of one of the reasons I'm an atheist, thank you! We get it, believe in your god, or you'll encourage bodily harm against us...

...As for the news story in the OP, I agree with giving all religions equal billing so to speak, but I think trying to have the cross removed is a bit ridiculous. Just as I thought trying to have the cross in the desert a few years back was too much (I can't remember where it was, was a WWII memorial on state land I believe).

However, if other religions request a symbol for their faith (or lack of) be included, and they are denied a place, then it's an issue of the government endorsing one religion over others, and then there's a problem.

Believe how you want, don't push it on me.

 

[JMThomas]

This is a fantastic example of one of the reasons I'm an atheist, thank you! We get it, believe in your god, or you'll encourage bodily harm against us...

QUOTE]

Kind of like those two boys who (were hardcore atheists by the way) walked into Columbine High School and began slaughtering the innocent? I think the worst part was when they deliberately began targeting Christian students and summarily executing them on the spot when they refused to deny their faith.

Nothing like encouraging AND going through with bodily harm. Don't think Christians are the only ones who can strike out in the name of something.

 

[rjstew317]

I see a Lock coming....................

 

[rjstew317]

Kind of like those two boys who (were hardcore atheists by the way) walked into Columbine High School and began slaughtering the innocent? I think the worst part was when they deliberately began targeting Christian students and summarily executing them on the spot when they refused to deny their faith.

Nothing like encouraging AND going through with bodily harm. Don't think Christians are the only ones who can strike out in the name of something.

One instance vs a campaign of crusades. that's not a comparison you want to start making, besides, it makes you look petty.

 

[RockofStrength]

One instance vs a campaign of crusades. that's not a comparison you want to start making, besides, it makes you look petty.

Those Crusades were perpetuated by Catholics who also commissioned coins to commemorate the slaughter of countless Christians on the St. Bartholomew's Day Massacre in Paris. I do not intend to say that all Catholics are murderers, or that their religion condones such, but please refrain from sticking Christians in with them.

 

[rjstew317]

Those Crusades were perpetuated by Catholics who also commissioned coins to commemorate the slaughter of countless Christians on the St. Bartholomew's Day Massacre in Paris. I do not intend to say that all Catholics are murderers, or that their religion condones such, but please refrain from sticking Christians in with them.

Catholics are the largest branch of the christian religion on the planet.
my point is that the crusades were carried out in the name of Christianity, Catholicism was just the particular flavor.

 

[DragonGunner]

I see a Lock coming....................

Yup...this is why it got banned, which I hated to see, but actually I understand why. Too much immaturity in knowledge by some, not all, on both sides. We have seen those that don't believe who can have respect for those that don't, an those that believe but don't try an ram it down peoples throats....then you have those that don't believe an like to fight, an those that believe but are still sucking the bottle an haven't learned to eat steak yet in knowledge. Mods have been very tolerate, ...

 

[rjstew317]

Yup...this is why it got banned, which I hated to see, but actually I understand why. Too much immaturity in knowledge by some, not all, on both sides. We have seen those that don't believe who can have respect for those that don't, an those that believe but don't try an ram it down peoples throats....then you have those that don't believe an like to fight, an those that believe but are still sucking the bottle an haven't learned to eat steak yet in knowledge. Mods have been very tolerate, ...

I think it because no one wants to have their beliefs questioned, especially with something so deep rooted as religion.

 

[DarkRose]

I see a Lock coming....................

I'm amazed it hasn't been locked already, I'm surprised the mods have let it get this far.

Apparently I need nailed to a cross and I'm comparable to the Columbine shooters...

Who knew?

 

[DragonGunner]

I'm amazed it hasn't been locked already, I'm surprised the mods have let it get this far.

Apparently I need nailed to a cross and I'm comparable to the Columbine shooters...

Who knew?

What do you expect, you have a avatar of you shooting a Bazooka so you must be a crazy.....O...wait....so do I.

 

[sepe]

What do you expect, you have a avatar of you shooting a Bazooka so you must be a crazy.....O...wait....so do I.

Yeah, you guys have to be insane with your avatars. Mine is perfectly normal.

 

[printcraft]

No, I'll keep them there if it separates me from arrogant, self absorbed, morons like yourself.

You leave the mormons out of this..... they like a couple extra womenz is all. Otherwise good people.

Yeah, you guys have to be insane with your avatars. Mine is perfectly normal.

Hear, hear.

 

[Roadie]

Thomas Jefferson, of many:

"There is not one redeeming feature in our superstition of Christianity. It has made one half the world fools, and the other half hypocrites."

That is actually a combination of several quotes, and is out of context. What he really said was..

[FONT=Arial, Helvetica][SIZE=-1]What has been the effect of coercion? To make one half the world fools, and the other half hypocrites.[/SIZE][/FONT]

He was talking about the forcing of beliefs, not the beliefs themselves. Nice try though!

 

[Caleb]

"some men just want to watch the world burn"

 

[IUBrink]

I believe the mods know that threads like these are great for building knowledge.

Atheism is NOT a religion.

The atheists are not pushing anything on you, think of it as Muslims wanting to place Korans on the 9/11 monument for those who lost their lives. Every Christian in this thread would go on a rampage. The atheists don't want the cross because not everyone was a Christian, and not having a cross is a better compromise than keeping the cross.

Cross = Great for Christians
Koran = Great for Muslims
Non-religious monument = Great for All

...also

Those Crusades were perpetuated by Catholics who also commissioned coins to commemorate the slaughter of countless Christians on the St. Bartholomew's Day Massacre in Paris. I do not intend to say that all Catholics are murderers, or that their religion condones such, but please refrain from sticking Christians in with them.

Salem Witch Trials

 

[DarkRose]

What do you expect, you have a avatar of you shooting a Bazooka so you must be a crazy.....O...wait....so do I.

Picked up the avatar on the 'net, no clue who it is.

I'm done participating in this thread, 'lest I look outside to see a lynch mob ready to show me the error of my (lack of) beliefs.

 

[Roadie]

I believe the mods know that threads like these are great for building knowledge.

Atheism is NOT a religion.

The atheists are not pushing anything on you, think of it as Muslims wanting to place Korans on the 9/11 monument for those who lost their lives. Every Christian in this thread would go on a rampage. The atheists don't want the cross because not everyone was a Christian, and not having a cross is a better compromise than keeping the cross.

Cross = Great for Christians
Koran = Great for Muslims
Non-religious monument = Great for All

...also


Salem Witch Trials

"The atheists are not pushing anything on you"

Really? What is the purpose of all those signs, billboards etc that say "there is no God" that atheists have been funding?
---

"Every Christian in this thread would go on a rampage"

Really? You know how we ALL think eh? See, I believe in freedom OF religion, as did our Founders. If they want a Muslim symbol there too, more power to them. However, I would bet you would find many more Christians open to a Muslim symbol being put there, than you would Muslims willing to coexist with a Star of David.
---

"The atheists don't want the cross because not everyone was a Christian"

That's not why, and you know it. They are offended for themselves.
Many who died that day WERE Christian though, why is it so wrong to honor THEM?

I am not offended by atheists, I wish I knew why they spend so much time being offended by me.

 

[NYFelon]

I'm an agnostic. I do not believe in god, but cannot say for certain that one does not exist. Regardless of the fact that I do not believe in god, I find the idea of suing to have the cross removed sickening. As an aside, when I heard that it would be returned and erected at the WTC site, I told my wife that there would be a lawsuit to have it removed. Not a week after hearing about the cross, I heard about the lawsuit.

Atheism IS a religion. Were you present at the beginning of the universe? Did you see how it was created/formed? No, right? Then you cannot say with any certainty that there is no god. You BELIEVE there is no god. Therefore, what you claim as absence of faith, is actually faith, since you have no way of being assured you are correct. I know, next comes the "you can't prove a negative" argument. You are making an assertion that you have no facts with which to back up. You are convinced of it in fact. That's the definition of faith. That's religion.

 

[Roadie]

I'm an agnostic. I do not believe in god, but cannot say for certain that one does not exist. Regardless of the fact that I do not believe in god, I find the idea of suing to have the cross removed sickening. As an aside, when I heard that it would be returned and erected at the WTC site, I told my wife that there would be a lawsuit to have it removed. Not a week after hearing about the cross, I heard about the lawsuit.

Atheism IS a religion. Were you present at the beginning of the universe? Did you see how it was created/formed? No, right? Then you cannot say with any certainty that there is no god. You BELIEVE there is no god. Therefore, what you claim as absence of faith, is actually faith, since you have no way of being assured you are correct. I know, next comes the "you can't prove a negative" argument. You are making an assertion that you have no facts with which to back up. You are convinced of it in fact. That's the definition of faith. That's religion.

In other words..

"... a skeptical agnostic is more intellectually honest than an atheist"



BTW...IBTL :>

 

[RockofStrength]

I believe the mods know that threads like these are great for building knowledge.

Atheism is NOT a religion.

Atheism is indeed a religion: it has a distinct set of beliefs (universal negative: there is no God or gods, morality is relative to each person or group of persons, as there is no God to create a natural law for all mankind like the Decalogue, etc.) which clearly mark it as a religion of nonbelief according to the definition provided by Dictionary.com:

"a set of beliefs concerning the cause, nature, and purpose of the universe, especially when considered as the creation of a superhuman agency or agencies, usually involving devotional and ritual observances, and often containing a moral code governing the conduct of human affairs."

The atheists are not pushing anything on you, think of it as Muslims wanting to place Korans on the 9/11 monument for those who lost their lives. Every Christian in this thread would go on a rampage. The atheists don't want the cross because not everyone was a Christian, and not having a cross is a better compromise than keeping the cross.

Cross = Great for Christians
Koran = Great for Muslims
Non-religious monument = Great for All

On the contrary: they are pushing their nonexistence of God (gods) upon us all by forbidding any symbol of religious significance, leaving only the secular memorial which an atheist would (presumably) be able to approve of. If the monument was originally non-religious, and one group started nattering on to have their symbol be given a place of prominence, then I would scrutinize it heavily: I do so here, as the Atheists are doing the same thing in reverse.

...also


Salem Witch Trials

Also, Soviet Communism, which banned all religion and slew many for attempting to practice their faiths, in addition to their other crimes against Jews and other hated peoples which I should not need to elaborate upon.

Any belief system will have radicals that do insane garbage. If that insane garbage can be reasonably reconciled as being in accordance with the general principles of that belief system, by all means call out that system for its madness, as we do with Communism. A Christian can formerly have been a murderer, as Paul was, but cannot remain as a pattern of life a murderer, as those who committed the atrocities during those trials were. If I call myself a Christian, yet deny that which by any logic makes me a Christian, I am making a statement that is either insane or misinformed.

A supposed conservative recently murdered 70-odd people in Norway: are we then, as conservatives, all to be classed as maniac, anti-Islamic murderers? Of course not! A religion is known and spread by its followers, yet is defined and set forth logically by its writings and texts taken and studied in the full historical, social, political, and cultural context in which they ought to be understood. Unless one gets down to the heart of a religion, we could stand here all day pointing at one event after another when any religion had followers that took their religion to such extremes as to actually violate its basic principles during their decent into madness and vile deeds.