Atheists Suing to Have WTC Cross Removed From Memorial Museum

[DragonGunner]

no you got that "bass ackwards" its to protect the government from the church. More of the founding fathers wanted nothing to do with the church than you believe. At least in government. If that were the case you would have catholic run states, fighting with baptist states arguing with Jewish states. Sounds like a good joke in the making at least.

I disagree. If that was the case the government wouldn't allow people from a church to run for office. The government is to protect freedom of religion "church" except where it may cause ill towards its fellow man. Heres a good read...again.
WallBuilders - Issues and Articles - The Separation of Church and State

"Seperation of church an state" never has been anywhere in the Constitution. It was in a letter written by Jefferson who was not a founding father,..editnot one of the 90 founders who wrote the 1st Ammendment), takin out of context by a liberal court in 1947 an made "doctrine". The 2 times "seperation of church an state" where takin to the Supreme Court using Jeffersons words, the Court took all the words in context an struck it down. I do think "Seperation of church an state" is found in the Soviet Union Constitution....but its been awhile an not 100% sure of that.

 

[ATM]

The atheists could probably get a tax break if they'd unite. They could form a not for prophet organization.

 

[Expat]

The atheists could probably get a tax break if they'd unite. They could form a not for prophet organization.

Good one right there.

 

[U.S. Patriot]

See, atheists want to take God out of the Pledge of allegiance, and they want crosses removed from soldiers graves. They want us to conform to what they want, yet they do not want to give themselves. It's nothing but hypocrisy!

 

[sepe]

See, atheists want to take God out of the Pledge of allegiance, and they want crosses removed from soldiers graves. They want us to conform to what they want, yet they do not want to give themselves. It's nothing but hypocrisy!

The people (on both sides) that are extremely vocal are the ones that just want something to complain about. I honestly wouldn't care if you prayed, preached, or whatever you do that makes you feel good as long as you don't push your beliefs on me. My problem with some religious people is that they don't even come close to living what they claim to believe.

As far as the story involved in the OP, the thread could have just as easily been named "Moron suing to get Moron's name in the news".

Not every atheist believes that anyone should conform to anything. I honestly do not care what you do or how you live. Just don't let me catch you in bars Monday-Friday and in a strip club Saturday nights when you claim to be extremely religious. I really only like calling out those that claim to be "good Christians" yet live along side the heathens.

 

[chefnick7]

Thomas Jefferson, of many:

"There is not one redeeming feature in our superstition of Christianity. It has made one half the world fools, and the other half hypocrites."

 

[redneckmedic]

My problem with some religious people is that they don't even come close to living what they claim to believe.

How so? What exactly in your mind does a Christian believe? Answer that correctly and I think you will have a paradigm shift.... (Hint: it has nothing to do with how you should act, be, or do.)

 

[sepe]

How so? What exactly in your mind does a Christian believe? Answer that correctly and I think you will have a paradigm shift.... (Hint: it has nothing to do with how you should act, be, or do.)

The people I'm talking about believe that they're living much better than everyone around them because they make it to church once a week. They seem to believe that going to church smelling like liquor, strippers, and whatever else from the night before makes them better than those that don't pretend to be living a Christian lifestyle. I honestly don't know and don't care about what anyone believes but I find it very funny that people I know (and I'm sure there are hundreds of thousands more out there) have no problem drinking, taking advantage of women, or doing drugs all while seeing themselves as better people than those around them because they happen to make it to church on Sunday. (Hint: I honestly don't care what you think and I honestly don't care if you have a paradigm shift.)

 

[DragonGunner]

The people (on both sides) that are extremely vocal are the ones that just want something to complain about. I honestly wouldn't care if you prayed, preached, or whatever you do that makes you feel good as long as you don't push your beliefs on me. My problem with some religious people is that they don't even come close to living what they claim to believe.

As far as the story involved in the OP, the thread could have just as easily been named "Moron suing to get Moron's name in the news".

Not every atheist believes that anyone should conform to anything. I honestly do not care what you do or how you live. Just don't let me catch you in bars Monday-Friday and in a strip club Saturday nights when you claim to be extremely religious. I really only like calling out those that claim to be "good Christians" yet live along side the heathens.

I see where your coming from, an your not alone. "JC" an the Apostle Paul saw this also. They referred to those that said they believe but there fruit didn't bare it as "hypocrits" an they have always been a stumbling block, glad your not fooled by them either. What one claims an what one is can be 2 different animals. Ever have a "JC" question feel free to pm me.

 

[sepe]

If I ever have a "JC" question, I've got an uncle that is a pastor, a cousin that is a youth minister, and 5-6 friends that spend many, many hours in churches serving as either youth ministers or pastors. They're people that actually live what they speak and don't push views if they know others aren't receptive. Gotta respect that.

 

[RockofStrength]

Thomas Jefferson, of many:

"There is not one redeeming feature in our superstition of Christianity. It has made one half the world fools, and the other half hypocrites."

If he wished to harbor that foolish belief, good for him. He could choose to believe as he wishes, as can I. He could ridicule my beliefs, as I just did his. He could put up his religious symbols, if any, as could I. That is, after all, what the Constitution protects, isn't it? The free exercise of religion?

I am curious how the government is supposed to effectively ban all religious expression regarding itself and yet not support Atheism or Agnosticism as the State Religion. Embracing all religions I could understand: the opposite seems as unconstitutional as a Christian theocracy.

 

[U.S. Patriot]

I'm a firm believer in believe as you wish. I served to protect everyones right to worship/or not as they wish. I do not push my beliefs on anyone, and I do not want other people beliefs pushed on me. If they do not like the cross, tough ****. If you do not believe in God, then don't say it during the pledge of allegiance. I do not get all offended just because someone speaks, believes, or displays things I do not believe in. They have every right to.

 

[U.S. Patriot]

If I ever have a "JC" question, I've got an uncle that is a pastor, a cousin that is a youth minister, and 5-6 friends that spend many, many hours in churches serving as either youth ministers or pastors. They're people that actually live what they speak and don't push views if they know others aren't receptive. Gotta respect that.

Someone who is an atheist and wants a cross to be removed is pushing their views on others! If they do not own the property, well to damn bad.

 

[JMThomas]

If you do not believe in God, then don't say it during the pledge of allegiance. I do not get all offended just because some speaks, believes, or displays things I do not believe in. They have every right to.

"I may not agree with what you have to say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it."

Man, I really am starting to like this forum. It isn't arguments, more calm discussion. A true debate. I like it. Especially seeing that Followers of Christ (I refuse to label myself under a Title, only God can give me that) like myself, are given a more populous voice here.

As to the "Christians behaving like Heathens" comments, try this out...

"Let he who is without sin (or wrong behavior in any sort of manner) throw the first stone."

So what if people have drinking problems or struggles internally? That is none of your business to judge them for it. We ALL fall short, but are saved by Grace. The essence of Humanity is failure and imperfection. If you can bash others because they bash you, doesn't that make you just as bad as the "Bigots" and "hypocrites" you despise?

 

[beararms1776]

Then why call him God?”

Regardless of the severity of our sins, we all have the exact same sentence in the end. Only a God can create that.

 

[RockofStrength]

“Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able?
Then he is not omnipotent.
Is he able, but not willing?
Then he is malevolent.
Is he both able and willing?
Then whence cometh evil?
Is he neither able nor willing?
Then why call him God?”


Epicurus – Greek philosopher, BC 341-270

The answer is given in fairly concise form in Romans 9. I'll quote the main pertinent part in the interest of brevity, but as with any literature its best to read the whole chapter at least to get the context and ensure that no part of the argument is missed.

Romans 9:19-24 (New American Standard Version):

"You will say to me then, 'Why does He still find fault? For who resists His will?' On the contrary, who are you, O man, who answers back to God? The thing molded will not say to the molder, 'Why did you make me like this,' will it? Or does not the potter have a right over the clay, to make from the same lump one vessel for honorable use and another for common use? What if God, although willing to demonstrate His wrath and to make His power known, endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction? And He did so to make known the riches of His glory upon vessels of mercy, which He prepared beforehand for glory, even us, whom He also called, not from among Jews only, but also from among Gentiles."

 

[Silverado]

The answer is given in fairly concise form in Romans 9. I'll quote the main pertinent part in the interest of brevity, but as with any literature its best to read the whole chapter at least to get the context and ensure that no part of the argument is missed.

Romans 9:19-24 (New American Standard Version):

"You will say to me then, 'Why does He still find fault? For who resists His will?' On the contrary, who are you, O man, who answers back to God? The thing molded will not say to the molder, 'Why did you make me like this,' will it? Or does not the potter have a right over the clay, to make from the same lump one vessel for honorable use and another for common use? What if God, although willing to demonstrate His wrath and to make His power known, endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction? And He did so to make known the riches of His glory upon vessels of mercy, which He prepared beforehand for glory, even us, whom He also called, not from among Jews only, but also from among Gentiles."

If that's the best your book can do, to compare humans to lumps of clay, then my agnosticism is indeed affirmed.

Good day.

 

[rjstew317]

So what if people have drinking problems or struggles internally? That is none of your business to judge them for it. We ALL fall short, but are saved by Grace. The essence of Humanity is failure and imperfection. If you can bash others because they bash you, doesn't that make you just as bad as the "Bigots" and "hypocrites" you despise?

I think the point that sepe was trying to make is that it's those same people (see bold above) that think they walk the high road and sit in judgement of others, when in fact they need to clean up their own backyard.

as to the OP, this is a piece of "rubble" from one of the most tragic moments in this country's history. This piece of "rubble" provided hope and comfort for thousands of sad and hurting Americans and IS (like it or not) a part of our history now, and should have it's place as such.

 

[RockofStrength]

If that's the best your book can do, to compare humans to lumps of clay, then my agnosticism is indeed affirmed.

Good day.

According to the Scriptures you are ultimately made from "the dust of the ground", thus the old funeral saying "ashes to ashes, dust to dust". It is actually an apt comparison. Clay has no value, form, or usefulness apart from God: to a Christian, a human being is the same.

If that be unacceptable...well, your choice, so be it.

 

[DragonGunner]

Thomas Jefferson, of many:

"There is not one redeeming feature in our superstition of Christianity. It has made one half the world fools, and the other half hypocrites."

FAIL: Never was said by Thomas Jefferson. This untrue qoute first appeared in 1906 in a book called "Six Historic Americans" archived on the infidels.org website. It now appears on tons of websites. The auther said Jefferson wrote this to a Dr. Wood but shows NO proof, an no proof of this writing or the mysterious Dr. Wood has ever been seen. Of course if you hate Truth you will try an destroy it with lies.

"The problem with out liberal friends isn't that they are ignorant, its just that they know so much that isn't true." Ronald Reagon