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  • mercop

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    Recently I was working with a SWAT team that had just added two new guys that had not yet been to a SWAT school. We were just getting them accustomed to clearing rooms and then eventually entire houses with a pistol in their hand. Sounds pretty simple doesn't it?

    The problem is that these officers like many other police and citizens who CCW have spent a lot of time on the range drawing, shooting, and moving, with two hands on the gun. This can be problematic when learning to do things such as opening doors, holding gear, using hand signals, keeping their balance, and moving people out of their way with the other hand. Due to what is called sympathetic reflex, when one hand contracts the other hand will do the same. This can result in negligent discharges. Another issue is that when both hands are glued to the gun it can force the shooter to extend his gun forward even when there is a non specified threat in front of him such as what appears to be an unarmed intruder that does no respond to verbal commands. I have found that many people's response to being "gun faced" at arms distance is to reach for the muzzle of the pistol. The more projected the gun forward the more likely this is to happen.

    This occurred several times while training the new officers. From within a room or when confronted head on, I was able to take advantage of the officers having both hands on the gun and was able to sweep their pistol out of play. Of course I was immediatly dealt with by the officer behind them. A citizen clearing his home or business will not have this luxury.

    Once they were taught that it was a handgun and not a handsgun and that while clearing with a gun it is a good idea to leave the reaction hand empty or to hold a light if needed, I was unable to take their guns.

    It is a very natural thing to come task and tool fixated, you are amped up with a gun in your hand, upon encountering a threat that does not require rounds you squeeze the gun harder with both hands. If someone grabs the gun your reaction is to hold on as tight as possible to keep the gun, there is a good chance that they may also have both of their hands on the gun. Now you are both task/tool fixated. It becomes a wrestling match. Doing the same scenario but with only one hand on the gun you are not only able to step back drawing the pistol into your center and away from the threat but you can also use your other hand to push, pull, or swing at your attacker.

    Being able to shoot a pistol and work with one in your hand are two very different skill sets.
     

    rvb

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    ...learning to do things such as opening doors, holding gear, using hand signals, keeping their balance, and moving people out of their way with the other hand.
    while I know competition is not SWAT training (I can imagine the moans already), but I truly think experience in the practical shooting games (idpa/uspsa) make these kinds of simple gun handling issues... well, non-issues.

    examples with doors:
    (also shows taking the support hand off the gun for balance/running).

    YouTube - MDHoser's Channel

    YouTube - MDHoser's Channel

    YouTube - MDHoser's Channel

    I don't have any vids uploaded of all the crazy props over the years I've had to manipulate, sometimes while shooting... it's good gun handling training. It eventually becomes instinctive how to act w/o sweeping yourself or others (a very common mistake to those new to such things).

    -rvb
     

    Coach

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    while I know competition is not SWAT training (I can imagine the moans already), but I truly think experience in the practical shooting games (idpa/uspsa) make these kinds of simple gun handling issues... well, non-issues.

    examples with doors:
    (also shows taking the support hand off the gun for balance/running).

    YouTube - MDHoser's Channel

    YouTube - MDHoser's Channel

    YouTube - MDHoser's Channel

    I don't have any vids uploaded of all the crazy props over the years I've had to manipulate, sometimes while shooting... it's good gun handling training. It eventually becomes instinctive how to act w/o sweeping yourself or others (a very common mistake to those new to such things).

    -rvb

    It sure cannot hurt.
     

    TFin04

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    It sure cannot hurt.

    Absolutely it can.

    For just as many times as "manipulation" may have helped him in the above scenario, there are instances where the gun game mentality would have set him back (for instance standing frozen in the fatal funnel).

    The cure to firearm familiarity is proper practice, regardless of venue.
     

    IndyGunSafety

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    I agree with Coach and RVB. The average citizen has much to gain from IDPA/USPSA. Some LEO's call it gaming. I call it training.

    Interesting post though, MERCOP! Thanks!
     

    TFin04

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    IDPA/IPSC/USPSA is certainly not training.

    Can it be good practice? Sure, if you shoot it the way you want to react in a real world situation. You won't win any events, but that's not what you're there for.

    The more you try to shoot them "practically" the more you get frustrated with stage layouts and silly range rules forcing you to create bad habits.

    I'm not bashing on the games, but it is simply a different world than self defense training.
     

    rvb

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    make these kinds of simple gun handling issues... well, non-issues

    seems I should have trusted my better judgement to not have bothered posting...

    The point I was trying to make, as quoted above, was not about tactics or being a house-clearing bad-a* mofo, or that the swat boys could shoot some matches and skip all their training; rather I was trying to present a venue for safely gaining experience in handling a firearm to Joe Schmoe with his carry permit or even to an officer wanting more trigger time.

    I took that to be the original poster's main point, that safely doing other "stuff" while handling a gun is not intuitive....
    ...like many other police and citizens who CCW have spent a lot of time on the range drawing, shooting, and moving, with two hands on the gun. This can be problematic when....
    TFin04, I'm sorry, I don't even understand your first post. Is a "fatal funnel" what the college kids are pounding beers with these days? :laugh: Seriously: Are you saying that the games will cause me to stand 'frozen' in fear if bad things happen?

    I specifically said the games are not tactics training, but a way to learn good gun handling. I stand by that. It's hard for me to argue a point about tactics I did not make....

    ... However, I guess in closing, I'm not in law enforcement. I hope it stays all theory for me. But I've shot with a lot of guys, especially when I lived out east, who were involved in a lot of hairy outfits and situations, and they never thought the games hurt them at all (you might be surprised where some very talented shooters are employed, not to mention folk's experiences in the war on terror). Of course, when I'm out at the mall, I'm very conscious of the 180 so I don't get DQ'd.... :n00b:

    -rvb
     
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    mercop

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    I am into the you do your thing and I will do mine thing. But my educated guess that if you took too equal people and trained one in IDPA for a year, took the other and did nothing but force on force for a year, the person who did the force on force would own the IDPA guy in a conversation distance confrontation.

    Since I have never competed in IDPA I can only assume that nobody hits you or tries to take your gun. You are focused on time and keeping the gun running. In real life the shots that scare the **** out of you are the ones you almost take, not the ones you do.

    Again, people fixate on the gun and not the fight. If during extreme stress you have your "best" tool in your hand you are more likely to use it for problems that could be dealt with other options. It is easy to escalate, hard to deescalate.

    Here is a for instance, during out last non ballistic combative pistol course in Quakertown PA I had the guy that was hosting put on headgear and grab and airsoft. He held it down at his side. I told him that as soon as he was ready attempt to shoot me with it as I stood at arms distance. When he dropped his shoulder I pimped slapped the side of his head at about 50% speed. His head whipped around, his knees buckled and he dropped the gun without firing a shot. If I had a gun in my hand I would have been likey to use it and traded shots with him. Maybe ending in a mutual slaying. If you think this is BS ask some of the folks that attended the edged weapon course in Indy a few weeks back.

    You have got to keep both of your hands in the fight. There are times when it is prudent to reholster, like if you are not covering down on something. This takes forever to get through to some people, if you have no area to cover with your pistol, holster it.

    This stuff is not pretty, it sucks to slip in dog **** running up step, or fall down steps with a gun in your hand, or fall on the ice. Ask me how I know:rolleyes: The first time to get banged around with a gun in your hand should not be in response to a bump in the night at 0 dark thirty.- George
     

    cosermann

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    Due to what is called sympathetic reflex, when one hand contracts the other hand will do the same.

    Mercop, does SWAT training dictate that the trigger finger should be on or off the trigger during this process? To me, one of the chief benefits of having one's finger off the trigger is avoiding ADs due to sympathetic reflex or the startle response. But, I'm curious how the SWAT context plays into this.
     

    mercop

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    Fingers are always off the trigger. This was my old team, they carry G21 SFs, Troy ARs, MP-5, Rem 870s and Moss 590/500. When long guns are slung safeties are on. As soon as they are covering something the safety comes off. I cannot speak for how everyone else does it. This is how we did it. With so many weapon systems, and the primary pistol not having a true external safety we found this was the be comprimise between training continuity and safety.
     

    IndyGunSafety

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    I don't go to IDPA events to play games or 'win'. If I win something great! I do it because it is GREAT TRAINING. My family and I set up COF's all the time and practice our holster draws, strong and weak hand shooting, shooting on the move and from various positions, cover, concealment, tactical priorities, slicing the pie, etc. How is this not training? We score the targets only to see how we did and reflect on the COF. We don't keep track of times or scores.

    At sanctioned events I do like the competitive nature of it, and I try to do my best. I mix it up because I carry several different guns depending on dress and the time of year. If I wanted to give myself the best chance of WINNING A GAME, I would never compete with a Glock 26! But I carry the G26 in the summer quite often so I TRAIN with it.

    Now not everyone treats IDPA this way, but if you do, YOU ARE TRAINING.

    When we go to IDPA we shoot our stock carry guns from the holsters we carry every day. As a civilian, there is no better way to practice on a weekly basis without hiring a specialized trainer to go with you every week.

    I will say, the one thing that bugs me about IDPA is every now and then there is a COF that has a description that to me gets out of the ‘spirit’ of the sport:

    "You're working for XYZ security in Iraq. You have a grenade in your right hand and a briefcase full of plutonium on your right..."

    I don't enjoy these scenarios as described... but WORKING WITH THINGS IN YOUR HANDS is very valuable, as our esteemed colleague MERCOP pointed out. I do believe these sports are what you make of them. I make them TRAINING.

    Now is practicing for IDPA as good as going to TDI every month? Is Metro's training better than getting 1 on 1 with Massad Ayoob every week for a year? Of course not. But as a trainer I try to find the teaching points in anything that can help my students and myself be the best we can be.

    IDPA may not be the BEST training... but it certainly can be good training.
     
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    EatMeerkats

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    IDPA/IPSC/USPSA is certainly not training.

    Can it be good practice? Sure, if you shoot it the way you want to react in a real world situation. You won't win any events, but that's not what you're there for.

    The more you try to shoot them "practically" the more you get frustrated with stage layouts and silly range rules forcing you to create bad habits.

    I'm not bashing on the games, but it is simply a different world than self defense training.
    This makes about as much sense as saying that racing on a track doesn't prepare you to drive on the street. Just because somebody is driving flat-out at the car's limits doesn't mean they can't tone it down and use a little common sense when they leave the racetrack. The only "habit" you develop is an absolute understanding of the thing you're driving fast.

    I've always thought it would be interesting to place a solid "practical shooter" (say, >= B class in USPSA) in an active shooter scenario against your run-of-the-mill cops (say, IUPD). I bet that a LOT of the cops would get hit first, simply because of the vastly superior skill level of the "gamer" who shoots every weekend and practices throughout the week. No, it is not tactical training, but you develop everything but the tactics. And I'm pretty sure if someone were shooting at me, I would not be standing still out in the open...
     

    DesertDoc

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    Good post, I recently saw a training video from I believe LAPD where a LEO on a felony traffic stop put a round about 2 inches from a suspects head due to sympathetic reflex. The suspect was proned out and complying but the LEO was still pretty geared up and BANG. Im sure that report was less than enjoyable to write/explain. :)
     

    cosermann

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    Fingers are always off the trigger. This was my old team, they carry G21 SFs, Troy ARs, MP-5, Rem 870s and Moss 590/500. When long guns are slung safeties are on. As soon as they are covering something the safety comes off. I cannot speak for how everyone else does it. This is how we did it. With so many weapon systems, and the primary pistol not having a true external safety we found this was the be comprimise between training continuity and safety.

    So, if I understand correctly, it sounds then that the added stress, excitement, etc. of SWAT training is exposing weaknesses in their basic gun handling skills. Think that's about right?
     
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