What Americans Don’t Get About Nordic Countries

[Kutnupe14]

But you said "conservative ideology".....

Yeah, and? You'd have to be incredibly naïve to believe that conservatives, that hold means of production, relish the idea of market competition.

 

[Route 45]

Sure. Just using local geography to illustrate the point. State vs country wasn't the point. Change it to US, Mexico, and Guatemala if it is in the way of understanding the point of 3 tiers of workers.

But using local geography negates the point. Three tiers of workers is just fine. Nothing wrong with it. I think you are assuming that foreigners have a right to come here. They do not. They are foreigners. I'd be just fine with letting foreign workers work here, taxing them however we see fit, and deporting them if they do not wish to go beyond the status of a legal worker, if our economy dictates.

 

[BehindBlueI's]

But using local geography negates the point. Three tiers of workers is just fine. Nothing wrong with it. I think you are assuming that foreigners have a right to come here. They do not. They are foreigners. I'd be just fine with letting foreign workers work here, taxing them however we see fit, and deporting them if they do not wish to go beyond the status of a legal worker, if our economy dictates.

You're having a different conversation. I'm not debating if it's good or bad to use immigrant workers in this fashion. Read the article in the original post. Then read the article I posted and what I wrote. I'm pointing out the hypocrisy of the author and those who ADVOCATE FOR THIS SYSTEM are being hypocritical by leaving out this critical component in the debate. That it benefits those who are taxed, that it taxes the wealthy more than the working class, etc. If you're going to say "gosh, look how awesome this is for the workers" and leave out those tidbits, you're basically the used car salesman talking about how great the motor is but failing to mention the transmission is shot.

 

[jamil]

Do you see any irony in listing things in our country that are now well established, popular, and stemmed from the socialist movement then saying we are "pretending" about scale?

I suppose it might be ironic if what I said about it was what you're trying to say about it now. In your other post you wanted me to admit that what we have now is just scaled down Bernie style democratic, government ownership of production. It's not. And whatever elements of socialism we do have mostly had to be weaseled into existence by elites in robes amending the constitution by ideological court rulings.

As for popularity, I'm not surprised that people receiving the fruits of other people's labor might be find of that, especially popular with the people doing the most getting.

Social Security is a little different. It was sold as a sort of retirement plan that you pay into, and then draw from when you retire. My dad was a young man when social security started. For most of his life he believed that the money taken out of his paycheck was going into a trust fund and then would be given back to him when he retired. He didn't think of that as socialism. I don't think most people did. They thought it was sort of a coerced savings plan. But it was actually a forced Ponzi scheme.

 

[jamil]

Yeah, and? You'd have to be incredibly naïve to believe that conservatives, that hold means of production, relish the idea of market competition.

Wait. Don't confuse conservatism with cronyism. Conservatives AND liberals are cronies. The only difference is the kinds of businesses they like to intermingle. Crony conservatives are every bit as bad as crony liberals.

 

[jamil]

I just wanted to take the opportunity to say this. Just because it needs mentioning again.

 

[jamil]

And capitalists are greedy. A good capitalist can convince govt to socialize their loss or create a illegitimate banking body to manipulate the market (sound familiar?)

Oh, I forgot to mention. Everyone is self interested. Some people are equipped with the ability to be self interested at other people's expense with less motivation than others.

 

[oldpink]

To be perfectly honest, I'm not completely confident many INGOers, or people generally, understand free market capitalism actually is, and if they did would support it completely.

You are confusing genuine free market capitalism with corporatism, aka crony capitalism.
How ironic that by far the most left-wing president we have ever had has also been the single biggest exponent of crony capitalism.
Coincidence?
I think not.

 

[Kutnupe14]

....and the free market idea of workers being able to sell their labor without restriction (ie border controls)?

 

[BehindBlueI's]

In your other post you wanted me to admit that what we have now is just scaled down Bernie style democratic, government ownership of production.

I did? I'm thinking there may be a misunderstanding, then. I'm not real sure what Bernie's style is so I find this unlikely. Care to point me to the post in question?

 

[jamil]

I did? I'm thinking there may be a misunderstanding, then. I'm not real sure what Bernie's style is so I find this unlikely. Care to point me to the post in question?

The context was what Kut was defining as "socialism". The democratic socialism that Bernie advocates.

 

[jamil]

....and the free market idea of workers being able to sell their labor without restriction (ie border controls)?

If this is the discussion I think it is, we've talked about this before. I'd be happy to go with free market capitalism and open borders. Let's end the welfare state, the war on drugs, and a few other social constructs that make open borders screw up markets, and we can talk.

 

[BehindBlueI's]

The context was what Kut was defining as "socialism". The democratic socialism that Bernie advocates.

I'm aware there are flavors and levels of socialism. The common core of socialism is public ownership of businesses and resources (the "means of production"). If we agree on that, I'm not sure what we're arguing about. If we don't...well, that's kinda what makes socialism socialism so not sure where to go from there.

 

[printcraft]

Yeah, and? You'd have to be incredibly naïve to believe that conservatives, that hold means of production, relish the idea of market competition.

Yeah, better to have government set prices and pay.

 

[Kutnupe14]

Yeah, better to have government set prices and pay.

^^^^See Jamil? I told you.

 

[printcraft]

It's only fair.

Competition via capitalism has never resulted in advancements.
Hard work does not bring success.
Well not as many as the socialist countries....... Do you have that list ready for review yet or?????

 

[Kutnupe14]

It's only fair.

Competition via capitalism has never resulted in advancements.
Hard work does not bring success.
Well not as many as the socialist countries....... Do you have that list ready for review yet or?????

lol, right.... carry that flag. Woot, woot!

 

[printcraft]

Sooo... No list.

 

[oldpink]

It's endlessly amusing how those on the left at first claim that they don't have socialist aspirations for the country at large, even while they claim that ordinary taxation for proscribed public needs constitutes socialism, then seek to use that as a stepping stone -- i.e. "See? We're already socialist because blah, blah, blah..." -- to justify yet more​ socialism.

 

[actaeon277]

Great human inventions by country - Eupedia