Union Decides To Kill Jobs

[Jack Ryan]

Does that contract specify that they will have that job for a specific period of time?

They are working now aren't they? If the plant IS closed they have rights to job opening at many other similar plants with similar pay and jobs and if the plant closes the current contract concerning plant closings kicks in with specific language concerning retirement and severance financial opportunities for people currently working there.

The "offer" would have tossed all of that aside and they would have been working for years just to get what they are entitled to and have already earned if the plant was closed tomorrow. It would be pretty stupid to work thirty years or more for a retirement package and then toss it in the crapper for an opportunity to work day by day for the same or less money you would make retired.

They have a contract. All parties concerned agreed to the contract.

Your word is good or it's not. There's not a problem until "it's not".

I see here all the time people complaining some one's word is no good. It's the basis of the rep and buyer / seller recomendations. Wasn't long ago there was a whole thread about a sale gone bad because a guy made a drive to make a deal and then one party wanted to turn it all different. Every one was all upset over it how rotton one party or the other was.

That was on day, one gun, a couple hours driving.

Make that drive 30 YEARS long and half of every thing you ever earned. Then tell me how half a sandwich is better than none.

If you aren't working there, it's not your job, it's none of your business, you don't know what you are talking about.

A contract is a contract, even when it's a person who works and punches a time clock. Go tell the bank a half a sandwich is better than none and see how fast you are out on the street.

 

[dross]

They are working now aren't they? If they plant IS closed they have rights to job opening at many other similar plants with similar pay and jobs and if the plant closes the current contract concerning plant closings kicks in with specific language concerning retirement and severance financial opportunities for people currently working there.

The "offer" would have tossed all of that aside and they would have been working for years just to get what they are entitled to and have already earned if the plant was closed tomorrow. It would be pretty stupid to work thirty years or more for a retirement package and then toss it in the crapper for an opportunity to work day by day for the same or less money you would make retired.

They have a contract. All parties concerned agreed to the contract.

Your word is good or it's not. There's not a problem until "it's not".

I see here all the time people complaining some one's word is no good. It's the basis of the rep and buyer / seller recomendations. Wasn't long ago there was a whole thread about a sale gone bad because a guy made a drive to make a deal and then one party wanted to turn it all different. Every one was all upset over it how rotton one party or the other was.

That was on day, one gun, a couple hours driving.

Make that drive 30 YEARS long and half of every thing you ever earned. Then tell me how half a sandwich is better than none.

If you aren't working there, it's not your job, it's none of your business, you don't know what you are talking about.

A contract is a contract, even when it's a person who works and punches a time clock. Go tell the bank a half a sandwich is better than none and see how fast you are out on the street.

What if market conditions change to the point it's no longer possible to pay the negotiated amount and remain in business?

 

[ATOMonkey]

What if market conditions change to the point it's no longer possible to pay the negotiated amount and remain in business?

Federal Government picks up the tab.

 

[Bosshoss]

We've had guys sabotage their machines so they wouldn't have to work.

I am sure that this only happens in a union shop

 

[Bosshoss]

Nope. They're not on the dole AT THIS MOMENT, but they shall be soon enough, since they've decided that they're too good to work for the proffered wage. They've decided to forgo a job, to live in fantasyland and they'll soon be on the dole because the jobs they once had are going to go away.

I am sure that is something that they have to decide. BUT I know it is none of your business what they decide.

 

[dross]

I am sure that this only happens in a union shop

Probably does, but if people were paid by what they produced rather than by the hours they worked it would never happen.

I am sure that is something that they have to decide. BUT I know it is none of your business what they decide.

What's all this "none of your business" stuff? This is a discussion forum. In it, we discuss stuff. This is an item in the news, and the issues being discussed - labor, unions, factories closing, the economy - affect everyone.

 

[mrjarrell]

I am sure that is something that they have to decide. BUT I know it is none of your business what they decide.

Since they'll be sucking at the taxpayers teat it sure is my business.

 

[beararms1776]

We've had guys sabotage their machines so they wouldn't have to work.

I believe it.

 

[hornadylnl]

They have a contract. All parties concerned agreed to the contract.

Your word is good or it's not. There's not a problem until "it's not".

I see here all the time people complaining some one's word is no good. It's the basis of the rep and buyer / seller recomendations. Wasn't long ago there was a whole thread about a sale gone bad because a guy made a drive to make a deal and then one party wanted to turn it all different. Every one was all upset over it how rotton one party or the other was.

That was on day, one gun, a couple hours driving.

Make that drive 30 YEARS long and half of every thing you ever earned. Then tell me how half a sandwich is better than none.

If you aren't working there, it's not your job, it's none of your business, you don't know what you are talking about.

A contract is a contract, even when it's a person who works and punches a time clock. Go tell the bank a half a sandwich is better than none and see how fast you are out on the street.

Ok, Jack. What you are leaving out in the gun transaction is this. The seller says you will pay my price or I will key your truck on the way out. If you don't buy my gun, I will conspire with my friends to prevent you from buying one from someone else. I'll even put up a roadblock to prevent you from leaving.

Such things as picketing and blocking company property, vandalism to company or scab property and threats of bodily harm to scabs help the company to bargain freely?

The company would have a level playing field if they could say f your contract and the horse you rode in on and not have workers prevent them from bringing in other workers tomorrow. Those tactics are no different than what the mafia uses. Only the union thug tactics are government approved.

 

[Bosshoss]

Since they'll be sucking at the taxpayers teat it sure is my business.

Well I am a tax payer also (as are the people we are talking about)and I don't feel it is any of my business what some other taxpayer decides about his job. Most of these people will transfer to other GM plants. If they took a cut in pay then the taxes they pay would go down by a like amount. Who do you think will make up that differance?
Shouldn't we want everyones wages and benefits to go up instead of down?
GM is making a profit now so don't say that keeping the wages they make now is putting the company out of business.

 

[Arm America]

Union wages set the pay scale for those not in one.

Call me old fashioned, I've been called much worse.
Jack Ryan is correct, a contract is a contract.

Slash wages in half, make half a house payment. No doubt the Banks will go for that.

GM and Chrysler's line workers did not ask for the bailout.
Washington doled it out with strings attached, just like always.

Forced both companies to become whores to the Elite.
And what do the employees get, shunned by their fellow Americans.
These guys have Kids in College,
believe in spending their paychecks in their local economy,
earning a fair wage for a day of labor.

No one complained two years ago when the economy was better.
You don't want to support a union wage, buy a Kia. It's your money.

Ford didn't want, nor need a bailout,
Same American workers building the same products.
It must not be the workers or their wages.

When Cities loose manufacturing we all lose.
Indianapolis has faired better than most as far as manufacturing,
but when factories close, a greater burden is added to all of our shoulders.








Our Leaders in Washington turned a blind eye to the direction THEY chose to lead us.

 

[dross]

Shouldn't we want everyones wages and benefits to go up instead of down?

Yes, in the aggregate we want everyone's standard of living to go up. That's accomplished through productivity. Sometimes technology allows us to produce the same product more efficiently using less skilled workers. A bootmaker used to be able to produce one pair of boots in a day. Now a production worker in a shoe factory might produce dozens of pairs. This makes shoes cheaper for everyone.

The loser in this scenario is the skilled bootmaker. He probably needs to find another profession.

Protecting jobs from the efficiencies of the market isn't the way to raise the standard of living of anyone but the workers whose lifestyle is being ARTIFICIALLY protected.

GM is making a profit now so don't say that keeping the wages they make now is putting the company out of business.

One factory won't put GM out of business. Failure to continue to make decisions based on market reality will.

 

[hornadylnl]

GM and Chrysler's line workers did not ask for the bailout.
Washington doled it out with strings attached, just like always.

Are you honestly going to tell us that if GM and Chrysler weren't union (specifically UAW), that they would have still been bailed out?

I've got some ocean front property in Tippecanoe County if you believe that.

 

[hornadylnl]

One factory won't put GM out of business. Failure to continue to make decisions based on market reality will.

He forgot to mention that all of the senior people from the closing plant will be bumping less senior people out of other plants and putting them on the street.

 

[Liberty's Teeth]

Ford didn't want, nor need a bailout,
Same American workers building the same products.
It must not be the workers or their wages.

No, just better management

 

[dross]

Union wages set the pay scale for those not in one.

Yet another reason to oppose them.

Call me old fashioned, I've been called much worse.
Jack Ryan is correct, a contract is a contract.

If the factory isn't profitable due to conditions that have changed since the agreement and must be closed, the contract is worthless anyway.

Slash wages in half, make half a house payment. No doubt the Banks will go for that.

The banks will like it less if the factory closes.

GM and Chrysler's line workers did not ask for the bailout.
Washington doled it out with strings attached, just like always.

Doled it out specifically to appease the labor unions.

Forced both companies to become whores to the Elite.
And what do the employees get, shunned by their fellow Americans.
These guys have Kids in College,
believe in spending their paychecks in their local economy,
earning a fair wage for a day of labor.

Irrelevant and sentimental. It has nothing to do with how wages are set, market conditions, and they still have the same issues if the factory closes.

No one complained two years ago when the economy was better.
You don't want to support a union wage, buy a Kia. It's your money.

A good economy covers up inefficiencies. A poor economy turns them into a crisis that must be dealt with in the real world.

Ford didn't want, nor need a bailout,
Same American workers building the same products.
It must not be the workers or their wages.

Many factors go in to a failing business, not just workers. That doesn't mean that reducing labor costs isn't necessary.

When Cities loose manufacturing we all lose.

When cities lose manufacturing because it's inefficient, we all gain.

Indianapolis has faired better than most as far as manufacturing,
but when factories close, a greater burden is added to all of our shoulders.

A great burden is added to those who didn't efficiently use the resources. When the resources are naturally redistributed due to market forces, everyone gains except those who were part of an inefficient system. Kind of beautiful in it's fairness.

 

[Indy317]

Can the people even make ends meet living in Chicago and making only half the pay? Delphi had something like this happen here if I remember correctly and I can't blame some people for saying NO and taking a stand on that. However, you better have a plan on what you are going to do while you are taking a stand as unemployment doesn't pay much better than half pay at a good factory job.

Ugh, the wage was just under $30 AN HOUR. They are upset because they will be paid $15.50 an hour. I make $19.25 an hour and have plenty of money for a roof over my head, food on the table, and since I don't have kids, I can dump a ton of money paying off debt (money paying off debt would go to raising kids if I had them). Funny how I know many, many folks who were able to raise a family making much less than $30 an hour. To watch those people on TV makes me laugh. What they are really saying is:
-"I won't be able to have a 50" flat screen in every room of my home."
-"I won't be able to drop $10K a year in vacations."
-"I won't be able to have a boat."
-"I won't be able to have a second home/cabin."
-"I won't be able to have jetskis."

The list goes on and on. The only thing I think humans are "owed" is a safe life they can live free from harm. This means food, water, shelter, and safety. There isn't any moral code that says the food has to be eating out every day. That the water has to be bottled since you don't like the taste of city water. That the shelter has to costs $300K.

If these folks can't cut back to make it on $15.50/hour, then they are living too high on the hog. I am sure a few, very few, have valid issues: A sick spouse who really can't work. A sick child. Things like that. Many, like my relatives who retired from that plant, just take that huge paycheck and burn it to nothing every single month. Thousands on trips, smokes, booze, concerts, loaded trucks and cars, etc.. These people are just as greedy as the CEOs they complain getting paid tens of millions.

 

[dross]

The list goes on and on. The only thing I think humans are "owed" is a safe life they can live free from harm. This means food, water, shelter, and safety. ..

Who "owes" them these things?

 

[ATOMonkey]

I am sure that this only happens in a union shop

Yeah, but you'd get fired in a non-union shop if they found out who did it.

In a union shop, the worst thing that happens is the guy gets some paid vacation and assigned to another department.

 

[ATOMonkey]

earning a fair wage for a day of labor.

That's the root of the issue right there. It isn't a fair wage, because other people are willing to do the same job for less, and the company is forced to pay an artificially high wage.

You aren't paid for how hard you work. You're paid how much it costs to replace you.