Trump 2024 ???

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    jamil

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    WHAT? I can be wrong, and if I am wrong, I am certain you will correct me.

    Did Trump ever say he was going to remove people from the swamp? All I remember is “drain the swamp”; quite a difference from removing people from the swamp.

    When you drain something, it allows you to see what is actually inside. Think of it as a pool. You may know it is dirty but once you drain it, it become clear just how dirty it was.

    I think he did just that.

    This is a classical example of moving the goalposts. If this were what ardent Trumpers understood as "draining the swamp", the first complaint that Trump did not accomplish that promise would have been met with this argument. Instead you guys first made excuses, the Mueller investigation, impeachments, etcetera. And fair enough. That was an impediment to Trump fulfilling his agenda. But it was indeed a campaign promise undelivered according to what you must have believed draining the swamp was. You've only just now started to say, "Hey, wait a minute! Draining the swamp only means exposing it! See? Trump delivered afterall!"

    Okay. Let's pretend for a moment that you didn't just change the goalposts, that you believed all along that the campaign promise was so shallow so as to mean exposing the swamp. The only part Trump played in revealing the corruption was that he was the bait. It was other people who actually exposed the swamp, and that didn't happen to any great extent until after Trump left office. And it was key people in congress, new media, government auditors, X (formerly known as twitter). Trump didn't do that. They did.

    So yeah, this is a major goal shift. Why? Why is it necessary to either make facile excuses or switch semantics. And for what? So that you can maintain a pristine perception of Trump? Admitting Trump didn't fulfill a campaign promise is really a hill to die on?

    What's wrong with just saying, yeah, so what? No one's perfect. At least his presidency served as bait to lead others to expose the depth of corruption after he left office. That's absolutely true. If Hillary had won, we'd never have known the depths of the swamp. We'd just have suspected it. Why is that not your argument? I mean it's a good one. Instead your argument is first an excuse, and when that doesn't work, a denial. I think that does not serve you guys. Saying "so what" is a much better argument.
     

    jamil

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    Trump refuses to sign "loyalty pledge". Surprised the **** out of me. Wait. No it didn't. Will the RNC ban him from the 1st debate as stipulated?

    Under the circumstances, I think he has a good reason to be skeptical of the chamber-o-commerce/neocon wing of the Republican party. But, I think he should negotiate with them and agree to support the eventual nominee if certain conditions preventing McConnell style tricks against him.

    For example, if they fabricate dirt on Trump again, continue to claim he attempted a coup, and so on, I don't think Trump owes any loyalty to that. But if he can secure agreements not to pull that ****, and he's calling himself a Republican, then he needs to be one if he loses the primaries. Otherwise drop out of the Republican party right now and run in the primaries as an independent. That would certainly blow **** up.
     

    Ingomike

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    Trump refuses to sign "loyalty pledge". Surprised the **** out of me. Wait. No it didn't. Will the RNC ban him from the 1st debate as stipulated?
    Why would he? He has about a majority of the party support. If he does the current debates like he did the 2016 you guys will go nuts over how mean he is, everyone knows him and his positions. What upside is there of agreeing to a loyalty pledge in a party one is trying to take over?
     

    oze

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    Why would he? He has about a majority of the party support. If he does the current debates like he did the 2016 you guys will go nuts over how mean he is, everyone knows him and his positions. What upside is there of agreeing to a loyalty pledge in a party one is trying to take over?
    Because for people like me, he just adds credence to the belief that if things don't go his way, he and his giant ego will either run as an independent or, as he has done before, tell his followers to stay home. Either way, he'll hand the entire federal government to the donkeys this time, instead of just the Senate.

    But I do appreciate your honesty with your choice of words: "a party one (Trump) is trying to take over". I'd add, "by any means necessary "
     

    Ingomike

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    Because for people like me, he just adds credence to the belief that if things don't go his way, he and his giant ego will either run as an independent or, as he has done before, tell his followers to stay home. Either way, he'll hand the entire federal government to the donkeys this time, instead of just the Senate.

    But I do appreciate your honesty with your choice of words: "a party one (Trump) is trying to take over". I'd add, "by any means necessary "
    This ain’t bean bags, this is a real war for control of a huge territory of the uniparty and I fully support whatever is necessary to collapse it and take that territory. For all the complaining on INGO about the Republican Party some of you sure are supporting of it…
     

    SheepDog4Life

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    Why would he? He has about a majority of the party support. If he does the current debates like he did the 2016 you guys will go nuts over how mean he is, everyone knows him and his positions. What upside is there of agreeing to a loyalty pledge in a party one is trying to take over?
    Why wouldn't he if he's confident that he'll win the nomination leaving all comers in the dust?

    That he won't is a sign of weakness, smallness and fear.
     
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    SheepDog4Life

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    Why wouldn't he if he's confident that he'll win the nomination leaving all comers in the dust?

    That he won't is a sign of weakness, smallness and fear.
    Crazy that even on INGO there are those so hateful of the creator of MAGA that they actually support the tactics of the uniparty…
    Deflection and non-answer... so he is weak and fearful?

    Definitely not a confident stance.
     

    BugI02

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    C'mon man. The government swamp is people in government with power who use their positions to affect policy apart from executive authority. Unelected bureaucrats yes. But with power. People like to call this the deep state. To the extent that the deep state exists, that's what I think of as the swamp. Mid level managers are nothing; they come and go without impact to administrative power.

    So, again, what actions did Trump take as president to drain any real ass swamp creatures? And I mean people with actual power. We're not lowering the bar down to janitor here. And we don't care about mid level managers or low level bean counters, the absence of which would not cause the slightest dip in administrative power abuse.

    And I'm not speaking for anyone. Whoever else is involved in this part of the conversation can make their own points. You made a point I thought was a misstep in logic and pointed it out.
    Then if you are so certain, you should be able to quantify how many people in DC qualify as actual swamp dwellers and cite verifiable information that their numbers did not decline between early 2017 and late 2020

    I would be willing to bet you have no idea how many people you are talking about and no verifiable figures on the change in their numbers over time. That is what I am referring to. I'm sure it is deeply satisfying to some to deliver a hit piece of a sound bite like 'the swamp was just as full when Trump left office as when he took office' but do you have any data to back that up? How many government employees exercised decision making authority when Trump was inaugurated? Are there officials with decision making authority who should not be considered swamp dwellers? If so, how many and what is count for actual swamp dwellers.?
    How has this number changed over time?

    Where is your evidence to support your opinion? Should not the standards you wish to apply to claims of election fraud at least be the minimum standard for claims of Trump failures as well? Otherwise you are again claiming facts not in evidence

    I'm sure I can look forward to citations to support your claims in the near future

    Deflection to some postulated flaw in the minutae of my argument as a distraction from ever putting up or shutting up incoming in 3 ... 2 ... 1 ...
     

    jamil

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    Why would he? He has about a majority of the party support. If he does the current debates like he did the 2016 you guys will go nuts over how mean he is, everyone knows him and his positions. What upside is there of agreeing to a loyalty pledge in a party one is trying to take over?
    Why? That was actually entertaining. I think I will be entertained.

    Like I said, I think the people who are asking for a loyalty pledge are the same people who are likely to pull some McConnell level ****. Other than that, if he's running as a Republican, he should be a Republican. If he isn't ****ed over by the party, in other words, if he isn't the one voters choose he should support the one who is.
     

    BugI02

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    Trump refuses to sign "loyalty pledge". Surprised the **** out of me. Wait. No it didn't. Will the RNC ban him from the 1st debate as stipulated?
    What's shocking is people who won't unconditionally support the eventual nominee, because it might be Trump, thinking he should not be allowed to have the same right if it is a candidate he 'cannot support'

    something goose something gander

    Its a weak RNC attempt to forestall a third party run. In what way has the RNC earned his loyalty
     

    jamil

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    Why wouldn't he if he's confident that he'll win the nomination leaving all comers in the dust?

    That he won't is a sign of weakness, smallness and fear.
    I mean, after the **** the neocons did to him in 2020 I do not blame him a bit for distrusting them. But I think he has some leverage there. He could demand that before he makes any commitments, they have to as well.
     

    BugI02

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    Why? That was actually entertaining. I think I will be entertained.

    Like I said, I think the people who are asking for a loyalty pledge are the same people who are likely to pull some McConnell level ****. Other than that, if he's running as a Republican, he should be a Republican. If he isn't ****ed over by the party, in other words, if he isn't the one voters choose he should support the one who is.
    I don't believe he has ruled out that option, just not willing to blindly commit to an outcome still in flux

    You should be quite familiar with what motivations will drive a person to withhold their support for any particular candidate in the hope some better option will possibly be on offer, yes?
     

    KLB

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    What's shocking is people who won't unconditionally support the eventual nominee, because it might be Trump, thinking he should not be allowed to have the same right if it is a candidate he 'cannot support'

    something goose something gander

    Its a weak RNC attempt to forestall a third party run. In what way has the RNC earned his loyalty
    I don't unconditionally support anyone
     

    BugI02

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    I mean, after the **** the neocons did to him in 2020 I do not blame him a bit for distrusting them. But I think he has some leverage there. He could demand that before he makes any commitments, they have to as well.
    I'm sure Marcus Junius Brutus, Gaius Cassius Longinus and the rest would have been happy to sign a pledge of support for Caesar prior to the Ides of March
     

    BugI02

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    Because for people like me, he just adds credence to the belief that if things don't go his way, he and his giant ego will either run as an independent or, as he has done before, tell his followers to stay home. Either way, he'll hand the entire federal government to the donkeys this time, instead of just the Senate.

    But I do appreciate your honesty with your choice of words: "a party one (Trump) is trying to take over". I'd add, "by any means necessary "
    The lack of introspection here is staggering. How can you rule out the possibility that the constant sandbagging of Trump is also just as likely to 'hand the entire federal government to the donkeys'

    DeSantis was the great white hope, and he's 8 seconds into the 10 count. Maybe folks like you are the problem and not the solution

    Maybe you should consider the possibility that Trump just might be the best hope to win in 2024 (and always has been)

    'A house divided against itself something something'
     
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